phonomat said:

   
Sadly, no. Mea culpa. I have three new things that I have to come to terms with: the WM1A, the Z1R and the balanced Pioneer cable. Since I still have to decide if I'm going to keep the Z1R, this is the top priority right now. My evaluation method is that I try to listen more or less exclusively to one device for a prolonged period, which I now do to the Z1R (mostly via WM1A), only here and there changing back to the SE-Master1 for a quick comparison on a certain track. To add the balanced cable would just confront me with one more variable, and it's hard enough as it is. The Master1 is clearly the better headphone for me, it trumps the Z1R in all aspects except maybe bass. Also, I don't really need a complement. And yet, there is a certain "guilty pleasure" quality about the Z1R. It's ... fun, even if it sounds almost, well, mid-fi compared to the SE-M1 due to its closed nature. (Chill, people, I said "almost", lol.) I see it as a great upgrade for the TH-900, but I probably have become too accustomed to the SE-M1's open, airy sound. I think I might keep it nonetheless to have a closed-back alternative when need be. How do the two compare in your opinion?
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Quite frankly (just as AppleHeadMay said) I stopped comparing these two headphones long time back. Both of these are real beauties and are very fun and engaging headphones. If at all these two have made me appreciate the difference between dynamic and planer magnetic headphones. Also these two headphones (starting with Z1R) have restored my faith and respect in Japanese audio engineering. Doesn't mean I will retire others from my stable but I find these closer to my taste. 
 
Honestly speaking, I tend to grab M1 more than the Z1R but the difference is like 60/40%. If its up to me, I would stack the M1 against TH900 and HD800 (it replaces both for me and does more than that) while Z1R to me goes against the LCD3 which I always thought of as 'wonderfully dark'. Still love the LCD3 but with the extra punch Z1R comes as more fun of the two on certain tracks (these comparisons are strictly based on what I have in my collection)
 
One thing which should come as a surprise is that Z1R pairs with the ZH1ES much better.
 
Cheers and happy listening!

I'll have to do an a-b comparison between the z1r and m-1 both with balanced cable 4 pin xlr. For me the m-1 replaced the hd800s, leading to me selling it. Sadly the z1r hurts my head with after a few hours during listening sessions, so i perfer the se-m1. The lack of headband padding is to blame. My only headphone with the same style band is the oppo pm1. No complaints with comfort. My split is 50% pm1, 30% se-m1, and 20% z1r. I have compared the sem1 to the Focal Utopia and Hifiman He-1000 v1/v2, and Mrspeakers ether/ flow. I havnt had a chance to write up the review. Back to the z1r, it doesnt have any real competition currently in the semi-open class. Perhaps the Mcintosh hp1000 beats it or bests it.

Hi @up late, always good to hear from you. I feel that we are entering a terrain here the ruminations on which could fill pages over pages, but it would very quickly become too philosophical (think phenomenology, for example), and this is not the place for that kind of discussion, so I will answer in a briefer, more to-the-point fashion.
 
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up late said:

@phonomat - in response to your post, if the measurement discussion doesn't concern you then why weigh into it?

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To explain why it doesn't concern me?

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having done so, you say that some people have condemned the sem1 that you "happen to like very much" based on the measurements. that's not the whole story as i understand it. some folks have criticised its measured performance, which is not the same as panning it for how it sounds. however, some folks have heard the sem1 and panned its sound. while some have identified a correlation between the sem1's measured performance and how it sounds to them, and panned it.

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I cannot argue with their listening impressions, just as they cannot argue with mine. All I can do is challenge their claims that there is something like objectivity in this hobby in the first place, so that was what I was trying to do. Because, well, there isn't. Sorry. All this stuff is way too personal, and all we can do is strive to find some common ground, which for the most part will be futile. Problems occur when people take themselves and their own stance too serious.

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you say that you can't hear the ringing that appears in the measurements. fine, you don't have to. as i've said repeatedly here, there's no requirement for our subjective perception and sonic preferences to align with the objective measurements, and you appear to be conflating them just as others have done here. just because you don't hear it doesn't mean that it's not there and measurable. there could be any number of reasons why you don't hear it, which i won't go into here, but that shouldn't concern you as you regard the measurements as "of an academic interest at best". your "reality" is based on your subjective perception, which is apparently more relevant and valid to you than the objective data. and there's nothing curious about being a subjectivist.

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I think the point I'm trying to make actually goes a little bit further than that. I'm saying that this schism between subjectivity and objectivity perhaps doesn't even exist, or at least not in the way that it is often presented hereabouts. How "objective" can your objective measurements be? I just don't know and I have no way to find out, but my guess would be, well, not very objective. As this is not my discipline or field of expertise, I have no way of falsifying these results or even evaluating if they are scientifically solid; but even if they were, as these measurements are not able to measure what I hear, or, to put it more "objectively", how the sound waves the drivers output are interacting and interfering with my ear anatomy, my body chemistry and my brain circuitry, of which consequence could they be to me? As I said, I have little to no understanding of the matter, but the impression I get as a casually interested observer is that this kind of "science" is facing a lot of issues that are not sufficiently understood and/or solved (yet). Until this perception of mine changes, I will always put indefinitely more stock in what I hear. It's just the best test for me, and the only one really I can absolutely trust. As you said, measurements can be indicative, as can be impressions by others. The proof, however, is in the pudding/listening. And that is precisely why this will always be a subjectivists's game, since the idea of anyone telling me what I hear is preposterous.

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the objective data that is being referred to happens to come from innerfidelity, which is a popular reference for headphone measurements. it's also the only data point we have for the sem1 currently so far as i'm aware, so it's understandable that we refer to it in the absence of anything else.

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As I said, one data point would hardly mean anything in any discipline I'm familiar with. It's basically moot.

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as long as we regard the measurements as indicative rather than definitive, i see no compelling reason in the "facts" as you present them to be dismissive of the measurements or to cast doubt over the competency of the person who has taken them. and for the record, tyll identified a fault with his thd measurements which had developed and was rectified. equipment can become faulty as we know, but you would be drawing a very long bow to suggest that all of tyll's measurements are unreliable because of that particular issue, which was only temporary. as to your point that it's feasible that the people who have tuned the sem1 actually know what they're doing, well i have no doubt that they do but the same could be said for grado and ultrasone, and i've seen some disparaging remarks made about how their cans sound and measure.

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I never said that all his measurements are unreliable, and I don't think it either. What I do think, however, is that the SE-Master1 could very well have fallen into this time window. It really doesn't matter because even if the science behind it all it all was solid and transparent enough for me to convince myself that it's not all just smoke and mirrors (I'm not saying it is, you get my point), it still would need much more data points, and even then ... see above. As far as I'm concerned, measuring headphones is as much a hobby as listening to them. I don't care what people do in their sparetime, and hey, I can imagine it being fun if you are so inclined, but the time where it will shatter the foundations of my world are still quite a ways away. 

 And yeah, I get that that no one saif it had to, but sometimes that seems to be just the attitude behind those grandiose demonstrations. Here, crude infidels, behold the light, and see why you were all so wrong in liking this when it is scientifically proven that it sucks. It's just funny sometimes, and sometimes quite maddening.

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with regard to the review that i posted, i checked and it was originally posted some 17 pages back. anyways, i wasn't aware of that or the collective slamming it received. i thought it was quite considered, but it seems that sem1 owners are just as dismissive of critical assessments as they are of poor measured performance. i guess that could be seen as being even-handed.

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Here is where we have to disagree. Me owning some headphone doesn't mean I can't be right! 

 I hereby state that the vast majority of listeners would not agree that any Audeze headphone will have a bigger soundstage than the SE-M1. Also, the mids are not as recessed as the review made them out to be. And the thought of the Master1 being a basshead can is amusing, to say the least. As I said, celebrate diversity and hooray for subjectivity, but then again, there are things that should be very plain to hear for anybody. 

 On the other hand, I can only vouch for the sound I personally get out of my personal unit. However, I remember that I was not the only one disagreeing with that review, just maybe the most polite. 

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with regard to lan647's posts, while i don't condone the manner in which he expressed his feelings, i completely understand what brought him to that point and why he called out one person in particular as a cause of his frustration.

all of this "excitement" has occurred here for the same old reason that it usually does - folks taking criticism personally of the cans they have invested in and really like, regardless of whether it's based on objective data or subjective perception. and i really do find it all too predictable and tiresome.

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You know what? I totally agree with you. This forum has brought me to the brink of my temper (and over it) more than once, and I certainly know what it feels like to be a lone voice in the wilderness, faced with ignorant, circle-jerking fanboys with the sole desire to justify their purchase. There is nothing more irritating and despicable, because it's the opposite of enlightenment, it hinders information flow, it totally messes up the signal/noise ratio. It's just a pest, I hate it, and I share the opinion that it has to be countered in every which way possible. And yet, I feel that this thread is almost completely free of it. In my experience, there is no hype here. Well all know those hype train threads, and yes, it's so ludicrous and blatant that it's nauseating sometimes. Not so here, and I have to say that from the start on, this was a sign for me that this headphone is the real deal. There is no marketing BS, no sponsorships, no shills, no shenanigans whatsoever, just honestly enthused users, some of them with quite a bit of experience under their belts, sharing their honest impressions, be they good or bad. I think this is fairly plain to see, and if I was interested in an awesome headphone and had half a brain and a bit of cash to spend, that would give me a pretty good idea which way to look. In my eyes, it's one of the strongest arguments for it (well, apart from sound, comfort, build quality ...

). Of course, that might just be my own bias preventing me from judging the system I am part of in a sober way, but I have enough faith in my critical assessment to be quite sure that I'm at least not completely wrong. I hope you agree to a degree. 

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I have the Z1R and it is a beautiful headphone in itself but this Pioneer looks even more amazing. I probably won't be able to ever hear it because of the price though. All of this debate on sound quality is amusing to say the least. It's hard to believe that a headphone five years in development by a reputable and long established audio company could sound "terrible." I see there are a few people who own both the Z1R and the Pioneer and each have said positive things about both headphones. That's a better barometer for quality than any measurement or graph.

Id like compare the z1r to the mcintosh mhp1000. I am disappointed in the comfort of the z1r. Hurts my head after a few hours. The sem1 is like a feather due to its suspension band. I tryed the utopia and compared it side by side with the sem1. Having owned a hd800 and hd800s the sem1 was a replacement. For my closed needs ill strickly use the k3003, audeze sine with angled over ear pads, and kse 1500. I might buy a ether c flow eventually.

hi @phonomat, seeing as you have replied in some detail then i'll respond. by bothering to explain why it doesn't concern you, you have betrayed your stated position on this matter. in otherwords, it clearly does concern you, which is why you became involved.

there is objectivity in this hobby in the form of headphone measurements. it's apparent that you doubt their validity, which is consistent with your quintessentially subjectivist position on this matter. so knowing this, i should probably stop right there because it's ultimately futile to continue with this discussion.

however, I will add that being a subjectivist affords you the luxury of questioning the existence of objective headphone measurement data based entirely on nothing more than a "guess", predicated on a perception that they are "not very objective". and all you need to offer in support of it is that you have no way of verifying the validity or otherwise of the measurements, or the expertise to do so. how very convenient. i do agree that we're not discussing "hard science" here, but it is evolving and I've observed obvious similarities between headphone measurements from different sources that make them difficult for me to ignore, let alone dismiss out of hand.

given that the particular headphone measurements in question here are from innerfidelity, have you looked at the resources section where tyll hertsen provides an introduction to headphone measurement procedures and the equipment that he uses? while you may not understand the technicalities of the methodology and choose to continue to question the results it yields, i think the objectivity of the process is beyond any reasonable doubt.

i also think that you're still failing to distinguish between the role of objective headphone measurements and your relationship to them. it is the headphones that are being measured, not your hearing acuity. again, there is no requirement for your subjective perception to align with the objective measurements. you can disregard them as not being relevant to your personal listening experience, which is fine and what you're doing - pretty much.

just because there is only one objective data point for the sem1 currently, that doesn't necessarily make it moot. innerfidelity's other fr measurements (and there are heaps of them) align with those from other sources, so i'd argue that it's more likely than not that the sem1's fr chart is indicative of its performance in that particular area. but if you want verification from another source then you might be waiting a while.

no, you didn't say that all of tyll's measurements are unreliable, just those that he took of the sem1. seriously tho, you said that you had no insight into tyll's measuring method, but that didn't prevent you from casting aspersions over him and his measuring equipment, and calling it "food for thought".

i find your reaction to the review amusing for its blatant contradiction. here you are, a subjectivist, who is not only disagreeing with another person's subjective listening impressions, but referring to a statistically insignifcant number of opinions from other folks who happen to share yours, as some sort of consensus view that supports the "rightness" of your own. sorry, but you can't have it both ways.

finally, while i agree that this thread hasn't suffered from the hype that usually accompanies the announcement of a new flagship can, I regard that as a matter of circumstance more than anything else. the sem1 hasn't drawn a crowd for some reason, and it's not the only flagship that has been largely ignored here. it's apparent that you and other sem1 owners are passionate about it, and that's certainly not unique to this thread either. nor are the reactions to the criticism of it, which i've come to expect from head-fi'ers and find lamentable. i understand that it can be difficult to take the emotion out of a discussion about something that you're so invested in and i appreciate you trying to, but yes, i do think that your bias is showing.

happy to continue this conversation via pm if you like as i suspect that the other folks here would greatly appreciate it.

I moved to Tokyo. So dropped my m1 at yodobashi for repair. They said they will ship back to pioneer and should be back in 3 weeks. Can't wait to have them back.

Curious, what was the issue with your M1?

The pin inside the left connector broke.

arnaud said:

Interestingly, I found the z1r plain awful when I tried it at akiba store the other day. However processed the 1000-ax or whatever reference the active headset is, its treble is far more natural than the zingy z1r was to me ears! Probably some of it was the iphone used to drive it, I had nothing else if I'd use my own music.

Seeing how several people seem to have both phones here, there's clearly some sonic preferences at play and I may not be a fan of japanese brands / curious trend in voicing (exception being Stax but with exceptions there too lol).

That does not make supporters of the sony / pioneer idiots but it's safe to say we can ignore each others advice for listening to gear lol.

Arnaud

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Probably the iPhone tbh. I've noticed that out of my S7 Edge, the Z1R sounds pretty solid up to about 70-85% volume, then things start to get a bit brittle and harsh up top. This doesn't happen when powered from my amp/DAC, where the entire thing maintains a much more smooth, fluid and clean composure, at the same sort of volumes, or in cases even higher. 

Simply far too much money for a headphone based on dynamic type 50 mm drivers...considering the measurements. The distortion profile, if accurate, is abominable, although even order harmonics would certainly be pleasant to the ears...along with a mid-bass hump, especially as the voice coil heats up (bending the FR)...even if such sound is inaccurate. It might be a good idea to blind test the SEM-1s against other headphones with 50 mm drivers. The 30 Hz square wave (in conjunction with distortion) tells me all that I need to know. I would hazard a guess that it's not exactly a SOTA dynamic driver they are using. This would also be par for the course for a major electronics manufacturer, with a big bottom line.
 
What I learned from building my own subwoofers versus brick-and mortar commercial offerings is that you pay a lot, but what you get for the money is often lacking...sometimes extremely lacking.

anyone compared beyer t1 signature to sem-1? are they somewhat similar (or how are they different) since the sem-1 is being grouped with th900 and hd800 which are "bright" signature hps

@up late, looks like I find myself in a bit of a Catch 22 here: if I keep answering, I'll only "prove" that I do care, which I honestly don't. And you're right, this is fruitless. The subjectivist stance and what you'd deem the objectivist position are indeed inconsolable, which is why taking this to PM won't make much sense either. (Also, I'm afraid I lack your determination to be right.  I'm not saying this in a spiteful vein, in a way I admire it. I just don't have the time nor the stamina.) Plus we're both knee-deep in sophisms as is ...
 
Just for the record, I'm not proud of my "subjectivist position" and do not assume it to weasel myself out of whichever conundrum. In fact I lament it. Being on this forum is becoming more and more like an exercise in solipsism, and I mourn the fact that what we all do here is essentially dancing to architecture. I really would be glad to have some stable ground to fall back on, a well-established baseline providing some sort of factual basis. It would make things so much easier. But I'm afraid this will remain science-fiction for quite some time.
And I have the feeling 2017 won't see me posting a lot (hey, maybe this could be the new Head-Fi trend! Let's all just quit, ha!), partly because I have more than I could ever need with the Pio and the Z1R. Talk about end game ... and then some.
 
As for my personal bias, I won't go as far as claiming I have none, because I probably wouldn't know if I did, right? All I can say is that I really try not to be biased, and as far as I can judge I do think I succeed most of the time. But who am I to judge?  I can say that out of the headphones I own I'm mostly pretty much indifferent or have quickly become adverse to them, so at least pride of ownership is not really something I do. In my view, the Master1 is the best of the bunch by far though.
 
Lastly, I was of course aware of the contradiction in my remarks about the review, hence the winky thingy. Also, they were of course completely on the mark. 
 
Okay, carry on, people, and sorry for this last (partly) off-topic post from me.

no worries @phonomat, tho you do seem rather vexed by this. and thanks for allowing me to be "right" as you know how important that is to me.

Anyone know what material the earpads are ? They state they are leather like... Pads are showing wear and cracking.