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Astell&Kern AK380
Aug 17, 2015 at 5:50 PM Post #1,636 of 9,040
speedracer1 said:
   
 
Yes I would agree with Uncle E1 on the point about transport.  There are clear differences in sound between the AK-100, AK-240 and the AK-380 all being used as "transport" to feed the Cord Hugo.  I've have all these devices personally and they all sound different!  I've used both the HE-1000's and HD-800 to compare the sound signatures and I can pick all three AK players consistently.  
The Cord Hugo is a amazing portable amp and in some cases can really improve the sound when coupled with the AK players... but not always.  Regarding the Cord Hugo it's a "mid-forward" sound and its honestly a bit "thin" when comparisons are done with serious non-portable solutions. However that said, it is an outstanding device in its own right and one of the very best portable solutions one could hope for.
 
Sincerely,
-Speed
Click to expand...


I don't know a whole lot about optical output, but if the format of the output is PCM (I think it is), then that would indicate that AK players' DAC decode the bit level audio file into PCM as output which would definitely color the sound depending on the DAC and how it's implemented. If optical output is purely at the bit level (like USB), then I can't see how it's possible for the AK players to have different SQ when outputting to Hugo. With so many Hugo/AK owners hearing the differences, I have to assume optical only outputs uncompressed PCM.
 
I think the same analogy works for iTunes player versus a high end player like JRiver. Don't think anyone disagrees that the same audio file sounds differently between the 2 players.
 
Aug 17, 2015 at 7:21 PM Post #1,637 of 9,040
speedracer1 said:
   
 
Yes I would agree with Uncle E1 on the point about transport.  There are clear differences in sound between the AK-100, AK-240 and the AK-380 all being used as "transport" to feed the Cord Hugo.  I've have all these devices personally and they all sound different!  I've used both the HE-1000's and HD-800 to compare the sound signatures and I can pick all three AK players consistently.  
The Cord Hugo is a amazing portable amp and in some cases can really improve the sound when coupled with the AK players... but not always.  Regarding the Cord Hugo it's a "mid-forward" sound and its honestly a bit "thin" when comparisons are done with serious non-portable solutions. However that said, it is an outstanding device in its own right and one of the very best portable solutions one could hope for.
 
Sincerely,
-Speed
Click to expand...

 
personally, the strength of the hugo is in the dac while the weakness, tonality wise, is in the amp.
 
Aug 17, 2015 at 10:16 PM Post #1,638 of 9,040
bflat said:
 
I don't know a whole lot about optical output, but if the format of the output is PCM (I think it is), then that would indicate that AK players' DAC decode the bit level audio file into PCM as output which would definitely color the sound depending on the DAC and how it's implemented. If optical output is purely at the bit level (like USB), then I can't see how it's possible for the AK players to have different SQ when outputting to Hugo. With so many Hugo/AK owners hearing the differences, I have to assume optical only outputs uncompressed PCM.
 
I think the same analogy works for iTunes player versus a high end player like JRiver. Don't think anyone disagrees that the same audio file sounds differently between the 2 players.
Click to expand...

A few long discussions with some key people at AK and others have helped me better understand the player internally.  Before my discussions I would have had to agree that "If optical output is at the bit level (like USB) then I can't see how it's possible for the AK players to have different SQ when outputting to Hugo".
The answer to this question has to do with the way the analog and digital circuits are implemented along with the equalization. Simply put if the analog circuit precedes the digital component then it will include the equalization.  Putting aside the DAC chip set differences between the players, the equalization shapes the sound before being passed to the Hugo digitally.  Equalization effects the sound signature greatly.
These are facts stated above:
 
This part (below is conjecture on my part)
AK like most manufactures allows you to shape the sound via equalization (user interface) however the sound engineers at AK and every other DAC manufacture (I'm guessing) shape the signature to a much greater degree then users are allowed to manipulate the equalization interface.  I think it has to do with shaping the sound signature is a tricky business so we are limited to a simple interface.
 
Hope this helps,
-Sincerely,
-Speed   
 
Aug 17, 2015 at 10:22 PM Post #1,639 of 9,040
speedracer1 said:
  A few long discussions with some key people at AK and others have helped me better understand the player internally.  Before my discussions I would have had to agree that "If optical output is at the bit level (like USB) then I can't see how it's possible for the AK players to have different SQ when outputting to Hugo".
The answer to this question has to do with the way the analog and digital circuits are implemented along with the equalization. Simply put if the analog circuit precedes the digital component then it will include the equalization.  Putting aside the DAC chip set differences between the players, the equalization shapes the sound before being passed to the Hugo digitally.  Equalization effects the sound signature greatly.
These are facts stated above:
 
This part (below is conjecture on my part)
AK like most manufactures allows you to shape the sound via equalization (user interface) however the sound engineers at AK and every other DAC manufacture (I'm guessing) shape the signature to a much greater degree then users are allowed to manipulate the equalization interface.  I think it has to do with shaping the sound signature is a tricky business so we are limited to a simple interface.
 
Hope this helps,
-Sincerely,
-Speed   
Click to expand...

What if you have EQ disabled? Does that enable a pure digital line out without any "equalization" or sound signature alteration by AK?
 
Aug 17, 2015 at 10:59 PM Post #1,640 of 9,040
cantara256 said:
  What if you have EQ disabled? Does that enable a pure digital line out without any "equalization" or sound signature alteration by AK?
Click to expand...

If you have it set up as you suggested you will only be listening to the DAC chipset.  However, the way the player is implemented if the equalization is set in the "Off position" its actually running the modified version of AK equalization.  Lets call in the "AK house signature sound"  To really set if OFF or "flat" that's 0 db across all 20 frequency bands with gain set to neutral.  To accomplish this you would actually have to turn "ON" the Equalization and then set the eq curve to 0 and gain to 0 across all twenty bands. 
Sincerely,
-Speed
 
Aug 17, 2015 at 11:03 PM Post #1,641 of 9,040
speedracer1 said:
  If you have it set up as you suggested you will only be listening to the DAC chipset.  However, the way the player is implemented if the equalization is set in the "Off position" its actually running the modified version of AK equalization.  Lets call in the "AK house signature sound"  To really set if OFF or "flat" that's 0 db across all 20 frequency bands with gain set to neutral.  To accomplish this you would actually have to turn "ON" the Equalization and then set the eq curve to 0 and gain to 0 across all twenty bands. 
Sincerely,
-Speed
Click to expand...

That's pretty fascinating... and disconcerting. That effectively means there's no real line out (unless you do the 0 equalization trick you mention).
 
Aug 17, 2015 at 11:26 PM Post #1,644 of 9,040
speedracer1 said:
  I understand and respect your concern however I would bet other manufactures do the exact same thing.
Click to expand...

Yep. I wonder if others who know about this could comment. It's surprising to me that "line out" contains altered digital data in any product, especially a high end one.
speedracer1 said:
  I also suspect they will offer a "true line out" options with the introduction of their own amp. 
 
Sincerely,
-Speed
Click to expand...

That would be nice, and hopefully the dock will do that also. I do admit I love the sound out of my AK380, so I really can't complain about their "house sound". But if I want to use the AK380 as a source for a full desktop setup I would vastly prefer to have a real line out that just spews out raw, unaltered bits, and not a colored sound sig that's going to be distorted by the sound sig of the other components in the chain.
 
Aug 17, 2015 at 11:29 PM Post #1,645 of 9,040
speedracer1 said:
  If you have it set up as you suggested you will only be listening to the DAC chipset.  However, the way the player is implemented if the equalization is set in the "Off position" its actually running the modified version of AK equalization.  Lets call in the "AK house signature sound"  To really set if OFF or "flat" that's 0 db across all 20 frequency bands with gain set to neutral.  To accomplish this you would actually have to turn "ON" the Equalization and then set the eq curve to 0 and gain to 0 across all twenty bands. 
Sincerely,
-Speed
Click to expand...

I barely played with the EQ, but isn't 0 the default curve/gain if you create a custom EQ? So if I create a default EQ preset, would that be the same as no "AK house sound equalization"?
 
Aug 18, 2015 at 3:31 PM Post #1,646 of 9,040
alje said:
"Price is a result of supply and demand :)"
Supply can be manipulated.  So its more like the highest price the accountants think they can get away with charging
Click to expand...

I wonder how well the 380 is selling. That's the real test.
Personally I returned mine and don't regret it.
Manufacturers can get it wrong after success in the past and I wonder if the 380 is when AK got too greedy.
 
Aug 18, 2015 at 3:52 PM Post #1,649 of 9,040
speedracer1 said:
Cheznous,

What were the reasons why you returned your AK380?

Sincerely,
-Speed 
Click to expand...

Main reasons:
1.The sound really was no improvement over the ZX2 or P1.
Most of my listening is red book flac rips of my CDs with some HD.
2.Android file transfer is awful.
3.UI is not as good as Sony or Cowon.
4. Found when I switched off and restated is often froze.

But main reason is 1, sound quality. It really is no improvement over ZX2 or P1 or indeed any DAP with Hugo.
It's more hype than evolution.
So disappointed as it was a birthday present to myself and I hoped to be blown away. Instead I tried to be honest with myself and realised it was not better than what I had.
 
Aug 18, 2015 at 4:27 PM Post #1,650 of 9,040
speedracer1 said:
  If you have it set up as you suggested you will only be listening to the DAC chipset.  However, the way the player is implemented if the equalization is set in the "Off position" its actually running the modified version of AK equalization.  Lets call in the "AK house signature sound"  To really set if OFF or "flat" that's 0 db across all 20 frequency bands with gain set to neutral.  To accomplish this you would actually have to turn "ON" the Equalization and then set the eq curve to 0 and gain to 0 across all twenty bands. 
Sincerely,
-Speed
Click to expand...


It will measure dead flat with the EQ turned off so no it's not house EQ'd. Turning on the EQ circuit and leaving it flat will add additional in line buffering and circuits which you don't want in that scenario. Flat is not off but off is flat.
wink_face.gif
 Here's what innerfidelity found when measuring an ak240 which I would think has a similar 'house sound'.
"As you can see switching between a FLAT setting and turning the EQ off gives a pretty healthy (~3dB) increase in gain, but does not show any significant changes in EQ."
 
Here's an actual response curve with EQ off:
 

 
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