USB cords- Is more expensive necessary?
Feb 19, 2015 at 12:37 AM Post #16 of 39
Isn't powering the analog section by USB really only common in the lowest cost DACs? For example, the Modi2 does, but not the Bifrost - it's got an A/C power supply.
 
Feb 19, 2015 at 8:32 AM Post #17 of 39
billybob_jcv said:
Isn't powering the analog section by USB really only common in the lowest cost DACs? For example, the Modi2 does, but not the Bifrost - it's got an A/C power supply.
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Yes, of course - an independent power supply in a DAC is going to be more expensive. However, this conversation has included some totally absolutist statements about the quality of USB cables having no effect on the quality of audio. I am simply attempting to point out that there are exceptions.

Also, just to remind everyone - the ODAC is an example (among others). It is totally powered through the USB.

Just to be clear, there are better ways to spend your money than the cable - a separate, USB isolated power supply, for instance. It helps if that power supply is linear-regulated,too (usually the best for quality audio).
 
Feb 19, 2015 at 8:47 AM Post #18 of 39
That definitely makes sense.
 
Feb 19, 2015 at 9:21 AM Post #19 of 39
tomb said:
Yes, of course - an independent power supply in a DAC is going to be more expensive. However, this conversation has included some totally absolutist statements about the quality of USB cables having no effect on the quality of audio. I am simply attempting to point out that there are exceptions.

Also, just to remind everyone - the ODAC is an example (among others). It is totally powered through the USB.

Just to be clear, there are better ways to spend your money than the cable - a separate, USB isolated power supply, for instance. It helps if that power supply is linear-regulated,too (usually the best for quality audio).
Click to expand...


Sure. If one is getting audible (or measurable) EMI, then adding a USB isolated power supply would make sense. The problem is that this argument is used to sell isolated power supplies or more expensive USB cables when consumers have no evidence that they are actually needed. Then the argument is regularly used to justify subjective evaluation tests of USB cables that indicate audible differences that are likely not even there.
 
Feb 19, 2015 at 10:15 AM Post #20 of 39
I get quite a bit of noise from my Bifrost when connected via USB, I'm going to have a go at building a shielded USB cable with data only connections, I figure that should sort my noise issues out.
 
Feb 19, 2015 at 10:35 AM Post #21 of 39
kalavere said:
I get quite a bit of noise from my Bifrost when connected via USB, I'm going to have a go at building a shielded USB cable with data only connections, I figure that should sort my noise issues out.
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Unless the Bifrost wants to see power on those lines and won't handshake on the data without it. I'm not saying that how it works - I really don't know.

I do think there's several sources for noise - EMI is only one of them. Ground loops can cause noise, and so can poorly implemented USB circuits on the PC or DAC side that don't handle ESD properly. I used to work for a semiconductor company that sold *millions* of tiny chips the size of a flake of pepper that were used on USB ports, keyboards, touch screens, etc, etc to clamp ESD from reaching the circuit.

I guess my point is that if the noise is added before or after the cable, then buying a big money cable isn't going to help.
 
Feb 19, 2015 at 10:50 AM Post #22 of 39
billybob_jcv said:
Unless the Bifrost wants to see power on those lines and won't handshake on the data without it. I'm not saying that how it works - I really don't know.



I do think there's several sources for noise - EMI is only one of them. Ground loops can cause noise, and so can poorly implemented USB circuits on the PC or DAC side that don't handle ESD properly. I used to work for a semiconductor company that sold *millions* of tiny chips the size of a flake of pepper that were used on USB ports, keyboards, touch screens, etc, etc to clamp ESD from reaching the circuit.



I guess my point is that if the noise is added before or after the cable, then buying a big money cable isn't going to help.
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I'm not too sure how the BiFrost works either, it might not be a bad idea for me to ask over in their thread. But with that said I was only going to buy some cheap cable and solder on some RS online bought USB A & B terminations.

I've been using Toslink for a couple of days, just to see how that performs, I have very, very few 24bit files as it is, 99% of my music is streamed from Tidal so I have no bandwidth issues using Toslink.

The audible noise I get via USB is only when there is no sound coming from my PC and I crank the volume up, even at a loud level once the music is paused I can barely, barely hear noise. I'd just like to be able to turn it to max and hear no audible noise from USB like I get from Toslink.
 
Feb 19, 2015 at 11:07 AM Post #23 of 39
cel4145 said:
tomb said:
Yes, of course - an independent power supply in a DAC is going to be more expensive. However, this conversation has included some totally absolutist statements about the quality of USB cables having no effect on the quality of audio. I am simply attempting to point out that there are exceptions.

Also, just to remind everyone - the ODAC is an example (among others). It is totally powered through the USB.

Just to be clear, there are better ways to spend your money than the cable - a separate, USB isolated power supply, for instance. It helps if that power supply is linear-regulated,too (usually the best for quality audio).
Click to expand...


Sure. If one is getting audible (or measurable) EMI, then adding a USB isolated power supply would make sense. The problem is that this argument is used to sell isolated power supplies or more expensive USB cables when consumers have no evidence that they are actually needed. Then the argument is regularly used to justify subjective evaluation tests of USB cables that indicate audible differences that are likely not even there.
Click to expand...


You're mixing a lot of subjects, there. As to the cables, I only suggested that there's more to it than a knee-jerk statement saying it's all digital and it's impossible. When power is involved and any output we would want is analog, then it could have an effect.

However, if you're trying to lump power supplies into the same argument we've been having in this thread - that's wrong. A better power supply will result in measurable improvements every time with analog audio. More often than not, it's immediately audible, too.

If you're saying that some power supplies are not as advertised and can't make their claims ... that argument is not unique and could be applied to everything inside the audiophile culture and outside it, too.
 
Feb 19, 2015 at 11:09 AM Post #24 of 39
It might easier to take an existing USB cable, strip the insulation back somewhere, and snip the power lines. Of course, that also might mess with the shielding.
 
Feb 19, 2015 at 11:21 AM Post #25 of 39
billybob_jcv said:
It might easier to take an existing USB cable, strip the insulation back somewhere, and snip the power lines. Of course, that also might mess with the shielding.
Click to expand...

 


At some stage I'm going to have a go at making a litz braided cable for my HE-560's, I figured the USB lead would be good soldering experience. =P
 
Feb 19, 2015 at 1:07 PM Post #26 of 39
tomb said:
You're mixing a lot of subjects, there. As to the cables, I only suggested that there's more to it than a knee-jerk statement saying it's all digital and it's impossible. When power is involved and any output we would want is analog, then it could have an effect.

However, if you're trying to lump power supplies into the same argument we've been having in this thread - that's wrong. A better power supply will result in measurable improvements every time with analog audio. More often than not, it's immediately audible, too.

If you're saying that some power supplies are not as advertised and can't make their claims ... that argument is not unique and could be applied to everything inside the audiophile culture and outside it, too.
Click to expand...


I was also mixing in that people use these ideas to sell to equipment to consumers that they likely don't need. I am extremely skeptical whenever members of the trade start insisting on the benefits.
 
Feb 19, 2015 at 1:22 PM Post #27 of 39
But USB amp/dacs plug directly into the USB port so in re to my question about whether a higher quality(priced) USB cable is necessary  is a separate issue from what my initial question is pertaining to. Yes? Or did I miss something. This is all very very interesting but somewhat over my head!! lol.. The knowledge of folks on here is quite mindbogglingly impressive(to say the least) tks
 
Feb 19, 2015 at 1:24 PM Post #28 of 39
joeybgood said:
  But USB amp/dacs plug directly into the USB port so in re to my question about whether a higher quality(priced) USB cable is necessary  is a separate issue from what my initial question is pertaining to. Yes? Or did I miss something. This is all very very interesting but somewhat over my head!! lol.. The knowledge of folks on here is quite mindbogglingly impressive(to say the least) tks
Click to expand...

I stand by my original answer.
 
Feb 19, 2015 at 1:26 PM Post #29 of 39
joeybgood said:
  But USB amp/dacs plug directly into the USB port so in re to my question about whether a higher quality(priced) USB cable is necessary  is a separate issue from what my initial question is pertaining to. Yes? Or did I miss something. This is all very very interesting but somewhat over my head!! lol.. The knowledge of folks on here is quite mindbogglingly impressive(to say the least) tks
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To answer your question succinctly, no, they are not necessary at all, even if they hypothetically sounded better. The main thing you need to worry about is USB power issues with USB-powered DACs. If you ever encounter them on a certain system (it will be very obvious), a USB power isolator can fix the problem.
 
Feb 19, 2015 at 1:38 PM Post #30 of 39
joeybgood said:
  So as I upgrade my headfi system I am wondering if a person truly gains an audibly noticeable(if any) improvement in sound purchasing a $100+ USB cord over a $5- $15 USB cord? 
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No.
you're welcome 
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