viralcow said:

   
Strange, right? If your definition was clear and objective, I wonder why I found it just a bunch of meaningless words.
 
"nothing but clarity up top" - So clarity in the treble... how does this help define what grain is?
"overall timbre finesse" - meaningless jargon.
"nothing to do with frequency response, its the driver quality itself" - ??

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My point.
Lack of esoteric hearing and understanding,you know what....ignore me.
I'll resort to your "I hear X".

mrtechagent said:

  Sure....I'm with you,anything will sound grainy when you have heard a E-Stat or a R10 but for sub $1000 dynamics,the Beyers are reign supreme.

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I am comparing the Beyers to headphones such as the HD 600, K712, Q701, K612, and T50RP. Listening to flagships has broaden my understanding. Anyways grain isn't the end all in a headphones overall sound quality just one aspect of it. This is my definition of grain. I find grain can be found anywhere in the sound spectrum from the lower bass to the upper treble. I find it anywhere from a slight grittiness to undue harshness(as in not due to fr response) in a particular region of a headphones sound that detracts from the headphones overall transparency. Transparency to me is how true to life a headphones sound is, the more transparent a headphone is the less you notice you are listening to a headphone. Things such as grain, ragged FR response, resonance, etc. impact transparency. A truly transparent headphone to me is when you simply forget you are listening to a headphone and focus only on the music and sound alone and not the flaws of a headphone or the fact you are listening to a headphone(or speaker).

kman1211 said:

 
I am comparing the Beyers to headphones such as the HD 600, K712, Q701, K612, and T50RP. Listening to flagships has broaden my understanding. Anyways grain isn't the end all in a headphones overall sound quality just one aspect of it. This is my definition of grain. I find grain can be found anywhere in the sound spectrum from the lower bass to the upper treble. I find it anywhere from a slight grittiness to undue harshness(as in not due to fr response) in a particular region of a headphones sound that detracts from the headphones overall transparency. Transparency to me is how true to life a headphones sound is, the more transparent a headphone is the less you notice you are listening to a headphone. Things such as grain, ragged FR response, resonance, etc. impact transparency. A truly transparent headphone to me is when you simply forget you are listening to a headphone and focus only on the music and sound alone and not the flaws of a headphone or the fact you are listening to a headphone(or speaker).

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That's clearly a better definition than mine ...most importantly I agree with you in terms of the definition.
I just find it interesting that you find 7XXs and 6XXs to be less grainy than Beyers , I prefer my 880s and 150s over my AKGs and the 6XXs , Beyers to my ears are higher fidelity.

Definition of grainy:

Grainy - A slightly raw, exposed sound which lacks finesse. Not liquid or fluid.

an unfortunate characteristic for a high-end headphone to possess.

Ok, the thread will derail on this grainy subject. Sound perception is subjective: there are no facts, just interpretations.
I did hear AKG702 today (712 was unfortunately sold) and didn't like the sound very much. Granted, my setup was probably insufficient. I used fiio E07k which barely managed too drive them.
I didn't particularly miss the bottom end, but the top just didn't sound right too me. Especially the string parts sounded too thin and fizzi to me. I guess overall I could summon the experience as too bright for me. I think the 712 won't much improve this. I will try HD600 when I find good used pair.

mrtechagent said:

  That's clearly a better definition than mine ...most importantly I agree with you in terms of the definition.
I just find it interesting that you find 7XXs and 6XXs to be less grainy than Beyers , I prefer my 880s and 150s over my AKGs and the 6XXs , Beyers to my ears are higher fidelity.

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I think it could be because that I'm quite sensitive to mid-upper treble, system differences, and various other factors. I'm well aware the K7xx and HD 6xx are not grain free as well. AKGs and Senns also posses characteristics to their sound in which I enjoy more. I always grew bored of Beyers and find them a tad dull, it's almost like they lack character. I do find the DT 880 and DT 150 in the same league as the K712 and HD 600 with different strengths and weaknesses too my ears but they are less to my liking is all.

torta said:

Ok, the thread will derail on this grainy subject. Sound perception is subjective: there are no facts, just interpretations.
I did hear AKG702 today (712 was unfortunately sold) and didn't like the sound very much. Granted, my setup was probably insufficient. I used fiio E07k which barely managed too drive them.
I didn't particularly miss the bottom end, but the top just didn't sound right too me. Especially the string parts sounded too thin and fizzi to me. I guess overall I could summon the experience as too bright for me. I think the 712 won't much improve this. I will try HD600 when I find good used pair.

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True it is getting too off topic. The K712 is not as thin or fizzy sounding as the K702, I find the driver itself of the K712 to sound different than that of the K70x, it's thicker, more solid, has more depth, higher resolution, greater dynamic range, better soundstage and imaging, greater refinement, it's darker and smoother up top, etc compared to the K702. I find the K/Q70x a bit too bright and thin to me overall as well. The system makes a big difference as well. If I didn't have the Lyr 2 and my dac I wouldn't be praising the K712 and Q701 like I do now. The HD 600 is an excellent option, it has such a pleasant treble and fantastic timbre and tonality. It's easy to get to sound right as well.

kman1211 said:

True it is getting too off topic. The K712 is not as thin or fizzy sounding as the K702, I find the driver itself of the K712 to sound different than that of the K70x, it's thicker, more solid, has more depth, higher resolution, greater dynamic range, better soundstage and imaging, greater refinement, it's darker and smoother up top, etc compared to the K702. I find the K/Q70x a bit too bright and thin to me overall as well. The system makes a big difference as well. If I didn't have the Lyr 2 and my dac I wouldn't be praising the K712 and Q701 like I do now. The HD 600 is an excellent option, it has such a pleasant treble and fantastic timbre and tonality. It's easy to get to sound right as well.

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Interesting, I can wait until they get another demo pair. HD600 can be found second hand, 712 are to new, and there aren't many around. The difference could be about 100 euro.
Any solid state alternatives for 712? Lyr would be also usable for hifimans, so it is a good option.

torta said:

Interesting, I can wait until they get another demo pair. HD600 can be found second hand, 712 are to new, and there aren't many around. The difference could be about 100 euro.
Any solid state alternatives for 712? Lyr would be also usable for hifimans, so it is a good option.

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I found them quite different personally, some say they are the same with different pads and others don't, but with a K712 and Q701 on hand and after pad swapping I can't say they are the same. I would personally suggest the HD 600 if you find a good deal, I think the HD 600/650 are the safest headphones to recommend of what I have tried in the price range you are looking at, they are easy on the ears, scale up well and are revealing of the system, and are highly transparent. Well anything that outputs a lot of current and a good amount of voltage and is of higher quality should work for the K712, doesn't matter too much whether tube, hyrbid, or SS. I don't know of many amps that pair ideally with the K712 and honestly tube rolling would be an easier way to reach that ideal sound which is one reason I go with tubes.
 
Only problem is the K712 is picky in that if there is something wrong with the system it shows it and doesn't hold back and it also shows the characteristics(dynamics, bass slam, imaging, soundstage, transparency, texture, etc.) of every system and recording very well to my ears. I personally try to build my system around AKGs for this reason, I found if I tame the K712 on a system any other good quality headphone sounds great, at least to me. The best tubes for me overall are the ones the AKGs sound the most pleasant and transparent on to me. The K712 is my benchmark for this reason. I'm not saying I'm right but it's what my personal experience has told me. I also think the Senn HD 600 is another good benchmark of systems. The Sennheiser HD 600 is a benchmark for systems for many people and honestly I can see why.

to the OP question, I owned the original K701 when l was listening almost exclusively to classical and I found them superior to the Senns HD600 in terms of imaging, which is very important for orchestral music, but too dry in the mids. The HD600 would be my choice for vocal or piano music, while the K7xx for orchestral and strings in general. I have never heard the Shures
 
Having said that I would not recommend either for "Classical Only". The best "Classical Only" reasonably priced headphone I have heard is the old AKG K501, amazing soundstage and imaging, very fast transients, and sweet, sweeeeet midrange. I have not heard the Beyer DT660, but I would listen to them before buying a "classical only" headphone since @DavidMahler who recommended them knows a thing or two about classical music, and headphones.

calaf said:

 
Having said that I would not recommend either for "Classical Only". The best "Classical Only" reasonably priced headphone I have heard is the old AKG K501, amazing soundstage and imaging, very fast transients, and sweet, sweeeeet midrange. I have not heard the Beyer DT660, but I would listen to them before buying a "classical only" headphone since @DavidMahler who recommended them knows a thing or two about classical music, and headphones.

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Good to see K501 getting the nod and I agree. Not DT660 though; it can't compete as a home set up with HD600 and the like.

mrtechagent said:

  Sure.
 
What is Grain ? 
 
Ans - Grain is nothing but clarity up top,the overall timbre finesse....best test tone for grain is Rock Music , grain has nothing to do with Frequency Response,its the driver quality itself.
See if Kman said he didn't like the accentuation of Beyers which he found fatiguing I wound't have wasted my time arguing with people on the Internet,but since he clearly said they were "grainy" I had to waste my time to prove a point for the sake of eliminating misinformation which might affect potential Buyers.

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so you claim you have best "esoteric hearing" better than most of us ? please enlighten me?
 
 
P.S:
imo, I don't think anyone needs to bring objective proof when just expressing your personal subjective impressions, but if you claim you know the exact definition to a subjective impression/definition, without any objective proof,  I call that "BS". 

Lol at Beyers not being grainy and bringing up plants as proof. Nice, that's nice

Heard of this before ? 
The topic had shifted to OP's question but the puny "appsmarsterx" insect couldn't resist.

 puny "appsmarsterx" insect couldn't resist.

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just like you defined the term "grainy".  lol so called "audiophile"