redcarmoose said:

Obviously every part of the chain is just as important as everything else. One link, if failing and the whole thing goes south, to an extent. It sounds like you were searching and learning, finding your speakers were better than you ever thought (before you replaced them lol) I am not the guy who first thought of the importance of source, but learned from fellow members. I was at people's houses and would ask questions. When I leaned about the emphasis on source I was shocked.


Maybe the fun of all this is that none of it rarely comes easy. If anything putting a headphone rig together for $500 never sounded better, though it remains a challenge to get a great speaker rig to sound good.


I always enjoy reading your win-wins!

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Great post Redcar as per usual. So, the journey never really ends. You're one of the great resources here. I always learn a lot. It' just a positive experience when we can pick each other's brains and learn. Plus, I know you'll alert me to some killer death metal by year's end I missed.  

Yes redcar definitely talks a lot.

New metalhead lurking. I prefer prog-metal and post-hardcore (please don't ban me from this thread, lol). 
 
I'll peruse a bit and maybe ask some questions. 
\m/

First post in this thread and I'm going to be very upfront.
 
1. Metal is guitar riff based. The rhythm guitar is the lead instrument that establishes the melody of the music. The guitars are the actual music in real metal. Everything else kowtows to them. The vocals echo their melody or sing around them. Tony Iommi kicked Dio out of his band for good reason.
 
2. Good metal guitar tones are fat and distorted, death and black metal ones extremely so. That is if they're not dialing in a high gain razor wire tone to a crappy solid state amp. Sometimes bands will stick a high gain tone into a good tube amp like a JCM 800. Dismember used the ultra high gain HM-2 pedal into a dimed beeswarm JCM 900. What you hear on the classic Like an Ever Flowing Stream (and so many other extreme metal albums) is the ridiculously fat and loud rhythm guitars frequency masking the drum kit from the kicks to the cymbals.

3. There is hardly any actual extremely low subbass on metal recordings. What is there is captured with devices like the Yamaha Subkick which are more synthesizers than mics. The only other metal instrument that can go lower is the downtuned and ultra-distorted grindcore bass. That noise in the back of early Napalm Death, Carcass, and Bolt Thrower? The rumble on Effigy of the Forgotten? That's the bass. Carcass on Reek of Putrefaction probably went the lowest ever, reaching down to 25 Hz or so. Headphones bass isn't really the same as huge subwoofer generated full body bone conduction chest thump below 20 hz or so. This is heavy metal, not EDM.
 
4. Metal tends to be poorly recorded. It has been from day one with Black Sabbath's debut. Especially the percussion. Ever wonder why the cymbals and snare are so poorly recorded on Left Hand Path? They were the only fully acoustic parts of the kit used to track the drums and there's still high hat bleed into the snare! You have to accept metal recordings for what they actually sound like, not what you wish they did. Yeah mastering engineers should hold off on the brickwall idiocy but whoever decides the volume of a reissue can't change that Motorhead and Led Zeppelin not only haphazardly recorded but they  compressed the hell out of every instrumental track back in the 70s.

For frequency response, metal needs clean mids with no weird dips and mountains, bass extending to 20 hz without any emphasis to bleed into things, and a neutral to relaxed treble. You also need a decent soundstage for hard panned guitars and instrumental separation. The keyboards and guitars will merge on In the Nightside Eclipse on a pair of portable headphones, the same with Bolt Thrower's guitars and bass. Too much warmth in the upper bass and lower treble? Good luck hearing the rhythm guitar on Iron Maiden's "Aces High" or Angel Witch "Angel Witch". Iron Maiden is Steve Harris's band; just like nobody is allowed to tell him that maybe they should cut back on the 15 minute songs, nobody is allowed to turn down his bass.
 
You can basically toss entire brands of headphones out the window. No Grados, no Beyerdynamics. No AKG false soundstage with gaps caused by dips in the presence region that will separate guitars from their distortion.

Honestly the current HD 650s(silver driver, black box December 2014 released version) are the best headphones you're going to get right now for metal. Very clean mid range with no weird dips or shoutiness, inoffensive treble, and enough bass for kick drums. The HD 580/600 are great too but a little brighter so sparkly cymbals and many classic recordings can be fatiguing on them. The 800 is of course no go as is the black driver 650. You're not really going to be able to get better than the current one without major trade offs.
 
Most planars tend to have weird upper mid dips and treble issues. Spout off all you want about the LCD-4 but really who cares about cleaner bass if lead guitars on Onward to Golgotha are super recessed just like with an HD 25 as certain frequencies are shelved? Yeah that album is muddy but you can hear everything on speakers or the HD 600. A Marty Friedman noodly Shrapnel Shred wank record like Cacophony's Speed Metal Symphony? James Murphy's lightning leads? They're not gonna sound right. Hifiman headphones? Good luck with two hours of a high hat bashing thrash drummer on those. Metal does not like emphasized treble. STAX? Ignore the music alchemist.

psalmanazar said:

First post in this thread and I'm going to be very upfront.

1. Metal is guitar riff based. The rhythm guitar is the lead instrument that establishes the melody of the music. The guitars are the actual music in real metal. Everything else kowtows to them. The vocals echo their melody or sing around them. Tony Iommi kicked Dio out of his band for good reason.

2. Good metal guitar tones are fat and distorted, death and black metal ones extremely so. That is if they're not dialing in a high gain razor wire tone to a crappy solid state amp. Sometimes bands will stick a high gain tone into a good tube amp like a JCM 800. Dismember used the ultra high gain HM-2 pedal into a dimed beeswarm JCM 900. What you hear on the classic Like an Ever Flowing Stream (and so many other extreme metal albums) is the ridiculously fat and loud rhythm guitars frequency masking the drum kit from the kicks to the cymbals.


3. There is hardly any actual extremely low subbass on metal recordings. What is there is captured with devices like the Yamaha Subkick which are more synthesizers than mics. The only other metal instrument that can go lower is the downtuned and ultra-distorted grindcore bass. That noise in the back of early Napalm Death, Carcass, and Bolt Thrower? The rumble on Effigy of the Forgotten? That's the bass. Carcass on Reek of Putrefaction probably went the lowest ever, reaching down to 25 Hz or so. Headphones bass isn't really the same as huge subwoofer generated full body bone conduction chest thump below 20 hz or so. This is heavy metal, not EDM.

4. Metal tends to be poorly recorded. It has been from day one with Black Sabbath's debut. Especially the percussion. Ever wonder why the cymbals and snare are so poorly recorded on Left Hand Path? They were the only fully acoustic parts of the kit used to track the drums and there's still high hat bleed into the snare! You have to accept metal recordings for what they actually sound like, not what you wish they did. Yeah mastering engineers should hold off on the brickwall idiocy but whoever decides the volume of a reissue can't change that Motorhead and Led Zeppelin not only haphazardly recorded but they  compressed the hell out of every instrumental track back in the 70s.


For frequency response, metal needs clean mids with no weird dips and mountains, bass extending to 20 hz without any emphasis to bleed into things, and a neutral to relaxed treble. You also need a decent soundstage for hard panned guitars and instrumental separation. The keyboards and guitars will merge on In the Nightside Eclipse on a pair of portable headphones, the same with Bolt Thrower's guitars and bass. Too much warmth in the upper bass and lower treble? Good luck hearing the rhythm guitar on Iron Maiden's "Aces High" or Angel Witch "Angel Witch". Iron Maiden is Steve Harris's band; just like nobody is allowed to tell him that maybe they should cut back on the 15 minute songs, nobody is allowed to turn down his bass.

You can basically toss entire brands of headphones out the window. No Grados, no Beyerdynamics. No AKG false soundstage with gaps caused by dips in the presence region that will separate guitars from their distortion.


Honestly the current HD 650s(silver driver, black box December 2014 released version) are the best headphones you're going to get right now for metal. Very clean mid range with no weird dips or shoutiness, inoffensive treble, and enough bass for kick drums. The HD 580/600 are great too but a little brighter so sparkly cymbals and many classic recordings can be fatiguing on them. The 800 is of course no go as is the black driver 650. You're not really going to be able to get better than the current one without major trade offs.

Most planars tend to have weird upper mid dips and treble issues. Spout off all you want about the LCD-4 but really who cares about cleaner bass if lead guitars on Onward to Golgotha are super recessed just like with an HD 25 as certain frequencies are shelved? Yeah that album is muddy but you can hear everything on speakers or the HD 600. A Marty Friedman noodly Shrapnel Shred wank record like Cacophony's Speed Metal Symphony? James Murphy's lightning leads? They're not gonna sound right. Hifiman headphones? Good luck with two hours of a high hat bashing thrash drummer on those. Metal does not like emphasized treble. STAX? Ignore the music alchemist.

Click to expand...

Hold on, let me grab my popcorn...

Ok, I'm back. Please continue.

Ok metal heads, I need your help. I love my M-Duo's for IEM's, but their structural design is flawed. Where the cord enters the earbud cavity is reinforced by a rubber grommet. The grommet only has a groove that pops into the body, it's not solid. After using them every day, the grommet is loose.  
 
I wear them under my motorcycle helmet, therefore I need good noise isolation. I've tried 2 different replacements now and they both failed horribly. The wind buffeting my helmet creates a lot of noise. I do have T-400 foam tips that seem to help.

psalmanazar said:

  Honestly the current HD 650s(silver driver, black box December 2014 released version) are the best headphones you're going to get right now for metal. 

Click to expand...

 
And Fidelio X2.

psalmanazar said:

   
You can basically toss entire brands of headphones out the window. No Grados, no Beyerdynamics. No AKG false soundstage with gaps caused by dips in the presence region that will separate guitars from their distortion.

Honestly the current HD 650s(silver driver, black box December 2014 released version) are the best headphones you're going to get right now for metal. Very clean mid range with no weird dips or shoutiness, inoffensive treble, and enough bass for kick drums. The HD 580/600 are great too but a little brighter so sparkly cymbals and many classic recordings can be fatiguing on them. The 800 is of course no go as is the black driver 650. You're not really going to be able to get better than the current one without major trade offs.
 
Most planars tend to have weird upper mid dips and treble issues. Spout off all you want about the LCD-4 but really who cares about cleaner bass if lead guitars on Onward to Golgotha are super recessed just like with an HD 25 as certain frequencies are shelved? Yeah that album is muddy but you can hear everything on speakers or the HD 600. A Marty Friedman noodly Shrapnel Shred wank record like Cacophony's Speed Metal Symphony? James Murphy's lightning leads? They're not gonna sound right. Hifiman headphones? Good luck with two hours of a high hat bashing thrash drummer on those. Metal does not like emphasized treble. STAX? Ignore the music alchemist.

Click to expand...

 
Thanks for your opinion about Metal and Headphones , was fun and interesting to read .
But you forget something , Metal will not like or hate emphasized treble or what ever , it's only down to the listener preferences who will choose what they want to hear .
 
Currently i enjoy all of my headphones for any kind of metal depending on the mood etc , i like to hear different interpretations of a same album ...
 
Damn , i don't have any problem with the "fake" AKG large soudstage , the treble peak of death from Beyers , the sparkling of HD600 etc
 
Let's take an exemple,  In fact when i listen to let's say Battle in the North from Immortal , some times  i like to think it about a violent Blizzard , something cold and harsh , and the DT-880 is really great for that because the treble is not as soft as with a HD650 , but i don't care it's like i was battling my self in the North , a cold and razzor sharp sound  .  With the HD650 ??? no it's a much more relaxed experience , but also enjoyable for sure .
 
For STAX and planar i don't see why some couldn't enjoy Metal with them .
 
(If you can't stand some harshness while listening Metal , then you don't like Metal IMO )

[redacted]

This aggressive pontification is hilarious. Everybody has different hearing and preferences. Cool your jets and don't come in here trying to force your mid-fi rig down our throats. Many of us have heard and owned your equipment before. It's cool that you like it. Very happy for you. But dial it back a notch so we can have an intelligent discussion and not a shouting match.

vipervick said:

Ok metal heads, I need your help. I love my M-Duo's for IEM's, but their structural design is flawed. Where the cord enters the earbud cavity is reinforced by a rubber grommet. The grommet only has a groove that pops into the body, it's not solid. After using them every day, the grommet is loose.  

I wear them under my motorcycle helmet, therefore I need good noise isolation. I've tried 2 different replacements now and they both failed horribly. The wind buffeting my helmet creates a lot of noise. I do have T-400 foam tips that seem to help.

Click to expand...

You should ask ljokerl on his IEM thread to get the very best advice on that one. He's heard practically every IEM out there.

I bought the Grado sr80e deal from massdrop a couple months ago. Been listening to them on my phone and the sound profile is really growing on me for acoustical work such as jazz and some pop. Always listen to metal with my planars as I feel they give a wonderful bass response, but last night for a giggle I tried AMG's monthlies on my sr80e and dragonfly dac. HOT DAMN BOYS: Grados are super SPECIAL for metal!! The bass is super fast, tight and articulate; the highs are well extended and detailed without fatigue; the mids are absolutely glorious, crisp and hardcore! If you feel you need a really full bass profile for metal, try some Grados and see how important tight, neutral bass, mid forward and clear highs are to metal music. I even liked these for doom, though obviously not the best genre for them.
 
For $75 on massdrop it is worth a try

socks mk2 said:

The guy has either an O2 + ODAC or Modi + Magni by looking at the threads he's posted in. Gee, I wonder why he likes the HD650 so much. I'm going to blame his source and amplification until I'm light headed and pass out.

It's growing ever increasingly hard to refrain from talking **** about these budget source/amp combinations and the opinions that come with them. I do respect the users opinion based on their personal experience. I see how they have come to this conclusion as well based on my own audio journey. Budget source/amplification is a major hindrance to actual performance. I'm not saying that they need to spend $17,000 on a WA234; there are better options if you can hold off your purchase and stretch your budget for something, imo/ime, clearly higher performing.

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Getting really tired of you constantly bashing people's opinions because they own gear you don't like. You don't have to make people feel like crap for owning gear you don't like and pronouncing their claims as false. The little disclaimer doesn't help. Stop it. Not everyone lives at home. Not everyone has the stomach to look everywhere and order/sell/order again over and over again. I found stuff I like, and you hate my entire audio chain. I get that, but I get tired of seeing you bash Schiit every single time someone that owns Schiit gear has a comment. It's a great company that is killing it right now and thousands of people love their gear and the LCD-2 with it. You don't need to read everyone's profile and judge their comments based on what they own. It's a discussion, not an investigation into how you feel about their comments.

bavinck said:

  I bought the Grado sr80e deal from massdrop a couple months ago. Been listening to them on my phone and the sound profile is really growing on me for acoustical work such as jazz and some pop. Always listen to metal with my planars as I feel they give a wonderful bass response, but last night for a giggle I tried AMG's monthlies on my sr80e and dragonfly dac. HOT DAMN BOYS: Grados are super SPECIAL for metal!! The bass is super fast, tight and articulate; the highs are well extended and detailed without fatigue; the mids are absolutely glorious, crisp and hardcore! If you feel you need a really full bass profile for metal, try some Grados and see how important tight, neutral bass, mid forward and clear highs are to metal music. I even liked these for doom, though obviously not the best genre for them.
 
For $75 on massdrop it is worth a try

Click to expand...

 
Grados are fun, aren't they? I mean, they get a little hot in the treble sometimes, but when they rock, they really rock. The way they do guitars is quite special. Also, if you are enjoying them with jazz, you should give a listen to the record "These Are The Vistas" by The Bad Plus. That album made serious magic for me with the SR-80i.

Ah.  Such even tempered discourse.
 
I love metal!!!
 
BTW, best metal cans I've heard are the HFM 400i's.  Not perfect, but man, they just hit the right places with me.  Without or without a Schiit amp.
 
But when listening to Sabbath, my trusty Grado's rule supreme...