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What do YOU consider to be the best source type? Turntable, CDP, Computer, etc - Page 2

post #16 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac View Post
 

 

TT

Pros : some look like the USS Enterprise, and go great with Duevel speakers

Cons : maintenance can be a pain - if the arm is off you're in trouble, it can even scratch up the vinyl more than what you'd get in normal use; I'm not even a fan of Rice Krispies is for breakfast, certainly not for audio (Snap, Crackle, and Pop); vinyl takes up too much space, get enough moisture and you can lose them within your lifetime; on the upside, if you have the tools, they're actually easier to maintain than CDPs unless you blow your money on fancy tonearms and other parts

 

 

CDP

Pros : no Rice Krispies elves getting in the way of the music, discs last longer - storm can crash the roof and get your discs wet, but throw out the cover and other paper parts and dry the discs, and they'll probably work again

Cons : transport can fail on you in a relatively short time - I've had some fail on me in one way or another and buying a new laser or new transport isn't as straightforward as replacing a tone arm, not to mention you can get a decent $100 tonearm but an entire transport is around $300 (top loaders I imagine would be easier to maintain, but with the exception of the Sony Playstation, are more expensive)

ex. total failure on a friend's NAD C520; from my own, an old Onkyo flagship stopped reading discs; Marantz CD60 stopped reading CD-Rs and can't read new CDs with PC content for some reason, but reads PCM layer on SACDs just fine, also the tray mechanism broke twice on me; Sony SCD-595 stopped reading SACDs but reads regular CDs (not CD-Rs); Pioneer DV676 or something slowed down disc reads; old Alpine CD receiver stopped spitting out CDs...

 

 

iPod(+digital transport), or similar

Pros : no need to swap out discs

Cons : on a speaker system, not swapping out discs is off set by having to walk over to the iPod because you can't see the screen, much less navigate 160gb of music, unless you have your HT in the same room )and hook it up to the TV)

 

 

Computer

Pros : Can be technically free - you already have it for other needs, so you have a free transport lying around already; DACs will outlive several of them unless you are perpetually afflicted with SARS (Severe Audio Replacement Syndrome; also known as upgraditis); you won't have to swap out discs

Cons : conventional computers take longer to boot up, power supply wastes a lot of power; some people get around this waste by working on the computer while listening but personally I still prefer some of my listening with no distractions

 

 

Smartphone/Tablet

Pros : tehcnically free, particularly a smartphone, which you need for something else; battery-powered; SD cards and/or wireless drives, on some devices (with the port on the bottom) cable management can be good, can be a pain otherwise; UI looks nice, works well too

Cons : limited storage, wireless storage may not work with uncompressed audio and not all player apps have it (usually iTunes and the stock player apps)

 

 

 

 

Music server, or headless Android mini-PC/Mac Mini

Pros : no need to swap out discs, theoretically limitless storage potential with NAS and streaming, less power consumption than regular computers, better cable management than laptops (with USB ports on the sides), remote control apps for smartphones and tablets that give you the same UI as a player using local storage on the same device

Cons : not plug and play, can be too complex to set-up if you're not tech savvy, and choices limited if you need a local hi-fi shop to set it up (many manufacturers are coming out with these nowadays)

 

------------

 

All things considered the newest ones tend to be the best, so I'm going to go with the music server. Still saving up for one.


I like your viewpoint on vinyl. You didn't bash on it yet you did point out its flaws which, even though I am a vinyl guy myself, are true. You sound more like a digital person, which I respect because digital is, with no argument, more convenient in regards to portability, versatility, and ease of use.

 

But I do want to note on what you said about noise when it comes to vinyl, more specifically pops and clicks. True, vinyl is known for having a lower SNR because of things like pops and clicks, but you have to remember: vinyl that has been properly taken care of can be DEAD quiet. I'm talking absolutely no pops or clicks. Just pure sound; exactly like CD.

 

I like vinyl because it's sound quality, nostalgia, and its inherent need of maintenance. It's like having a real piece of equipment. Not just pressing play on iTunes or a phone/mobile device. It's got soul if you know what I mean. I know it sounds cheesy but you can actually and literally hold the music in your hands. The actual wave form of your music engraved on a piece of plastic. It has an attribute of seeming permanent, robust. That's why I love it =)

post #17 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua277456 View Post

 

But I do want to note on what you said about noise when it comes to vinyl, more specifically pops and clicks. True, vinyl is known for having a lower SNR because of things like pops and clicks, but you have to remember: vinyl that has been properly taken care of can be DEAD quiet. I'm talking absolutely no pops or clicks. Just pure sound; exactly like CD.

 

I did kind of touched on that, and there's the problem for most users. At some point they won't notice that the tone arm level is a bit wrong, and they won't notice the damage until much later. For some proper maintenance of vinyl equipment is a part of the whole audio experience, much like how some people would clean their own guns; for the rest, well, think about it more like a Knight who'd have his page make sure to take his sword and armour out to the smith so he can enjoy just the fighting then the jousting.

 

The more extreme example of not noticing this maintenance issue was at a local Hi-Fi show, where even reps from the high-end brands were present, and all of them had Rice Krispies along for the demos. These are people selling $1,000++ TTs among other things, and yet apparently they or their dealers don't check their tonearms regularly.

post #18 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac View Post
 

 

I did kind of touched on that, and there's the problem for most users. At some point they won't notice that the tone arm level is a bit wrong, and they won't notice the damage until much later. For some proper maintenance of vinyl equipment is a part of the whole audio experience, much like how some people would clean their own guns; for the rest, well, think about it more like a Knight who'd have his page make sure to take his sword and armour out to the smith so he can enjoy just the fighting then the jousting.

 

The more extreme example of not noticing this maintenance issue was at a local Hi-Fi show, where even reps from the high-end brands were present, and all of them had Rice Krispies along for the demos. These are people selling $1,000++ TTs among other things, and yet apparently they or their dealers don't check their tonearms regularly.


I think the issue has more to do with people that aren't knowledgeable about the hobby they are getting into. There is a book, Zen the art of motorcycle maintenance, that compares two peoples point of views on motorcycle maintenance. One prefers to work on it himself and one prefers to have it maintained by a mechanic. No point is really wrong, it's a hobby, whatever way someone enjoys their music is the right way.

 

I do find it interesting/worrisome when "experts" show up to trade shows with little to no knowledge for the product they are promoting.

 

-Snack

post #19 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac View Post
 

 

I did kind of touched on that, and there's the problem for most users. At some point they won't notice that the tone arm level is a bit wrong, and they won't notice the damage until much later. For some proper maintenance of vinyl equipment is a part of the whole audio experience, much like how some people would clean their own guns; for the rest, well, think about it more like a Knight who'd have his page make sure to take his sword and armour out to the smith so he can enjoy just the fighting then the jousting.

 

The more extreme example of not noticing this maintenance issue was at a local Hi-Fi show, where even reps from the high-end brands were present, and all of them had Rice Krispies along for the demos. These are people selling $1,000++ TTs among other things, and yet apparently they or their dealers don't check their tonearms regularly.


When you talk of tonearm level I assume you're talking about tonearm height. In that case, yes, it is sad when so-called "experts" claim to know what they're doing or talking about but actually don't. And then they try to sell you expensive hi-fi gear.... >.>

post #20 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua277456 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ProtegeManiac View Post
 

 

TT

Pros : some look like the USS Enterprise, and go great with Duevel speakers

Cons : maintenance can be a pain - if the arm is off you're in trouble, it can even scratch up the vinyl more than what you'd get in normal use; I'm not even a fan of Rice Krispies is for breakfast, certainly not for audio (Snap, Crackle, and Pop); vinyl takes up too much space, get enough moisture and you can lose them within your lifetime; on the upside, if you have the tools, they're actually easier to maintain than CDPs unless you blow your money on fancy tonearms and other parts

 

 

CDP

Pros : no Rice Krispies elves getting in the way of the music, discs last longer - storm can crash the roof and get your discs wet, but throw out the cover and other paper parts and dry the discs, and they'll probably work again

Cons : transport can fail on you in a relatively short time - I've had some fail on me in one way or another and buying a new laser or new transport isn't as straightforward as replacing a tone arm, not to mention you can get a decent $100 tonearm but an entire transport is around $300 (top loaders I imagine would be easier to maintain, but with the exception of the Sony Playstation, are more expensive)

ex. total failure on a friend's NAD C520; from my own, an old Onkyo flagship stopped reading discs; Marantz CD60 stopped reading CD-Rs and can't read new CDs with PC content for some reason, but reads PCM layer on SACDs just fine, also the tray mechanism broke twice on me; Sony SCD-595 stopped reading SACDs but reads regular CDs (not CD-Rs); Pioneer DV676 or something slowed down disc reads; old Alpine CD receiver stopped spitting out CDs...

 

 

iPod(+digital transport), or similar

Pros : no need to swap out discs

Cons : on a speaker system, not swapping out discs is off set by having to walk over to the iPod because you can't see the screen, much less navigate 160gb of music, unless you have your HT in the same room )and hook it up to the TV)

 

 

Computer

Pros : Can be technically free - you already have it for other needs, so you have a free transport lying around already; DACs will outlive several of them unless you are perpetually afflicted with SARS (Severe Audio Replacement Syndrome; also known as upgraditis); you won't have to swap out discs

Cons : conventional computers take longer to boot up, power supply wastes a lot of power; some people get around this waste by working on the computer while listening but personally I still prefer some of my listening with no distractions

 

 

Smartphone/Tablet

Pros : tehcnically free, particularly a smartphone, which you need for something else; battery-powered; SD cards and/or wireless drives, on some devices (with the port on the bottom) cable management can be good, can be a pain otherwise; UI looks nice, works well too

Cons : limited storage, wireless storage may not work with uncompressed audio and not all player apps have it (usually iTunes and the stock player apps)

 

 

 

 

Music server, or headless Android mini-PC/Mac Mini

Pros : no need to swap out discs, theoretically limitless storage potential with NAS and streaming, less power consumption than regular computers, better cable management than laptops (with USB ports on the sides), remote control apps for smartphones and tablets that give you the same UI as a player using local storage on the same device

Cons : not plug and play, can be too complex to set-up if you're not tech savvy, and choices limited if you need a local hi-fi shop to set it up (many manufacturers are coming out with these nowadays)

 

------------

 

All things considered the newest ones tend to be the best, so I'm going to go with the music server. Still saving up for one.


I like your viewpoint on vinyl. You didn't bash on it yet you did point out its flaws which, even though I am a vinyl guy myself, are true. You sound more like a digital person, which I respect because digital is, with no argument, more convenient in regards to portability, versatility, and ease of use.

 

But I do want to note on what you said about noise when it comes to vinyl, more specifically pops and clicks. True, vinyl is known for having a lower SNR because of things like pops and clicks, but you have to remember: vinyl that has been properly taken care of can be DEAD quiet. I'm talking absolutely no pops or clicks. Just pure sound; exactly like CD.

 

I like vinyl because it's sound quality, nostalgia, and its inherent need of maintenance. It's like having a real piece of equipment. Not just pressing play on iTunes or a phone/mobile device. It's got soul if you know what I mean. I know it sounds cheesy but you can actually and literally hold the music in your hands. The actual wave form of your music engraved on a piece of plastic. It has an attribute of seeming permanent, robust. That's why I love it =)

 

I love turntables and have lived with them since the late 60's - still have a Shure V15 Mk III and Technics SL-7.  My friends had Duals, Garrard Zero-100's, ... later on, Technics SL-1200's, etc.  At one time, I had an Elac Miracord 50H Mk II - a wonderful machine.  I've owned Empire cartridges, Shure's, Ortofon's, etc. - both moving magnet and moving coil.

 

Unfortunately, it's still vinyl.  If you get a perfectly recorded, high-quality pressing with no warps whatsoever (MFSL LP?) - and clean - you might ... might be guaranteed a dead quiet listening experience.  That's a lot of things to get right every time, however.  I can hear more detail in many of my LPs than from the typical CD.  Yet, I have to train myself to ignore the shortcomings - snap, crackle, pop, and rumble/resonance.  IMHO, there's always noise with an LP - it's just whether you choose to ignore it and enjoy the music.  That choice doesn't exist with digital and the detail/musicality is there on the very best of DAC's.  

post #21 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by SnackRabbit View Post


I think the issue has more to do with people that aren't knowledgeable about the hobby they are getting into. There is a book, Zen the art of motorcycle maintenance, that compares two peoples point of views on motorcycle maintenance. One prefers to work on it himself and one prefers to have it maintained by a mechanic. No point is really wrong, it's a hobby, whatever way someone enjoys their music is the right way.

 

I know that book, our class moderator in first year high school was a Jesuit Priest who taught us Zen, and he also rides a scooter, and I was first in line to borrow his copy. Problem was I interpreted that message in a totally wrong way that will be totally off topic here :D 

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with having a mechanic do it, really, although in my previous example I'd always say that generally it's better for one to maintain his own TT. As much as we have techs here who are knowledgeable, we also have too many potholes, so if it's routine maintenance I remind people here thinking of getting into vinyl because of all the things we know about its sound (mostly positive) that it's a lot better to do that at home than take it apart, repack, then put it together again at home, since those potholes can screw it up if you just put the TT on the back seat given our potholes and badly-done bridge/elevated highway joints. As for CDs, the real hurdle again is how much a transport is, or if it's just the laser, taking it apart yourself is something I'd totally give up in favor of constantly checking tonearms.

 

You know what's funny? They said CDs were more convenient, and until today my Dad might remind me of how much more reliable his TT was compared to the CDPs I've owned. I mean, the only reason I've owned that many is because they screwed up at some point, not because I didn't like the sound. By contrast my Dad and Granddad each owned one TT for two decades.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua277456 View Post
 


When you talk of tonearm level I assume you're talking about tonearm height. In that case, yes, it is sad when so-called "experts" claim to know what they're doing or talking about but actually don't. And then they try to sell you expensive hi-fi gear.... >.>

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnackRabbit View Post

 

I do find it interesting/worrisome when "experts" show up to trade shows with little to no knowledge for the product they are promoting.

 

Me too. My friends were so impressed by the sound, but I was just too distracted by the Rice Krispies elves. The one room I remember that didn't have this issue was a tiny outfit (ie, one guy) making custom tube amplifiers just north of Metro Manila, so obviously if you have a guy that hands-on, it's not surprising that his LPs and TTs are properly maintained as well. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tomb View Post

 

Yet, I have to train myself to ignore the shortcomings - snap, crackle, pop, and rumble/resonance.  IMHO, there's always noise with an LP - it's just whether you choose to ignore it and enjoy the music.  That choice doesn't exist with digital and the detail/musicality is there on the very best of DAC's.  

 

Those I'm yet to hear from a TT, but those annoying Rice Krispies elves are nearly always there. Is it possible it's because the only TTs I've tried ever since I got serious with audio (so that excludes my Dad's old system) were the ones that looked like spaceships with huge and heavy plinths? (Custom or otherwise)

post #22 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomb View Post
 

 

I love turntables and have lived with them since the late 60's - still have a Shure V15 Mk III and Technics SL-7.  My friends had Duals, Garrard Zero-100's, ... later on, Technics SL-1200's, etc.  At one time, I had an Elac Miracord 50H Mk II - a wonderful machine.  I've owned Empire cartridges, Shure's, Ortofon's, etc. - both moving magnet and moving coil.

 

Unfortunately, it's still vinyl.  If you get a perfectly recorded, high-quality pressing with no warps whatsoever (MFSL LP?) - and clean - you might ... might be guaranteed a dead quiet listening experience.  That's a lot of things to get right every time, however.  I can hear more detail in many of my LPs than from the typical CD.  Yet, I have to train myself to ignore the shortcomings - snap, crackle, pop, and rumble/resonance.  IMHO, there's always noise with an LP - it's just whether you choose to ignore it and enjoy the music.  That choice doesn't exist with digital and the detail/musicality is there on the very best of DAC's.  

Man I got to get me a linear tracking turntable. Those things are awesome. Pair it up with a MC cartridge, an all-tube phono preamp, and a dead quiet LP and the only thing better than that in terms of sound quality would be listening to master tapes =)

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