[softsound]

Unfortunately, not all power amplifiers work best at 2 volts RMS. It depends on their input sensitivity. To cover for this possibility, it is better to be an overkill, than an insufficient sound in dB level.
This is not a new idea. And certainly not mine. A lot of firms use more than 2 Volts RMS in their DACs.
Example : :Quad (2,5 volts RMS), Hegel (2,5 volts RMS), M2Tech (2,7 volts RMS), and so on.
I have listened to M2Tech Vaughan and I assure you that it is very dynamic (being able to make you hear from the quietest low-level detail of musical information, to the loudest possible full detail of musical information). Thus, one can hear better musical details, and the sound comes closer to the "real" sound.
More efficiently, means that when you are using any amplifier, in the case of a DAC with 2,5 volts RMS out, you will have an overall  louder sound in dB than with 2 volts RMS. So, you have a louder sound with less power consumption for the same amplifier at the same level of the volume knob of the amplifier, and at the same time you have a more dynamic sound.
I will give you an example that i have tested myself with my own amplifier :
Write your favourite music in your computer with Media Monkey for example, or with any programm that can modulate the level (in dB) of the recording. Write 2 discs (2 CDs) : One with with 88 dB and one with 94 dB. Then listen to both separately, and decide which one you like most, and also which one of the 2 is more dynamic-louder.
 
I suspect that apart from other reasons(better shielded being the XLR cable, less passive electronics used in the DAC's output stage for the XLR out, possibly for other reasons too), one major reason XLR sounds better than the RCA cable, is that XLR is 4 Volts RMS, whilst RCA is usually 2 Volts RMS. I may be wrong, but this is my belief.
But, if iFi audio would provide also an XLR out, then i am not sure that the product i am talking about would keep a really low cost.
That is why i asked a product that provides 2,5 Volts RMS through RCA out. It will provide a more dynamic sound, and will concommitanly save energy( produce louder music with less "turning on" of the volume knob of the amplifier).
RCA out will have probably also the advantage of sounding warmer than the XLR i guess, which would be preferable. On the other hand, 2,5 Volts RMS is not a heavy burden for any amplifier. I do not know any amplifier that plays bad because 2,5 Volts are too much for it (i could be wrong of course- i do not know all amplifier brands).
One alternative, would be the solution that M2Tech uses for a dynamic sound in M2tech Yound DSD. They use only XLR out for an output, but they also provide a long enough cable that converts XLR to RCA, which could directly enter in any amplifier. An XLR of 4 volts reduced to an RCA output of 2,5 volts RMS would be good.
A product with only an XLR out would be useless without a converter cable, because 90% of amplifier brands, do not have an XLR in input. At least not in the price range we're talking about. How many amplifiers in the range of 200-500 dollars do you know out there? Almost zero is the answer. Imagine someone buying a 500$ iSimple as Neogeo333 says, and then imagine being obliged to bying a 2000$ amplifier to find an XLR in. That is irrational. There definately has to be an XLR 4 volts to RCA 2,5 volts in such a DAC, otherwise the DAC itself would be useless.

 

[technobear]

I hardly know where to begin but to all newbies reading the above post, you can safely disregard all of it as RUBBISH.

 

[softsound]

I can not imagine that so many Great manufacturers producing DACs with RCA out >2 volts RMS are rubish.
I have named only a few here. I could easily fill a page only with the products that have such a feature. See for yourself.
For example Arcam irDAC (a UK product)  has an RCA out of 2,3 Volts RMS mesured in various tests from independent laboratories.
Since you are from UK, Quad Elite cd player has 2,4 Volts RMS RCA out, and 4,8 Volts RMS balanced.
http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/Uploads/File/Manuals/MNL-Elite%20Series.pdf
But also, other great and well respected companies from other countries.
Such as the Electocompaniet's ECD2 upsampling DAC has RCA out 2,3 Volts RMS as you see. Specifications :Upsampling DAC,inputs: TOSlink 24/96, S/PDIF coaxial, Asynchronous USB 24/192, Output: RCA 2.3Vrms / XLR 4.6mV,Noise floor (20Hz-20kHz): <-145dB, Frequency Response: 0.5Hz-48kHz,THD+N: <0.0005%
Teac Esoteric D07 DAC has

Analog Output
Output terminals	XLR/RCA
Maximum Output level	2.2Vrms (1 kHz, full scale, 10k&ohm
Frequency response	5 Hz to 55 kHz
Signal-to-Noise Ratio (S/N)	115 dB
Total harmonic distortion	0.001% (1kHz)
Digital Input	XLR,RCA,Optical, Async USB 24bit/192kHz
Power consumption	7 Watt
Weight	10.4 kg (21 lbs)

 
T&A DAC 8

Specifications
D/A converter	32-Bit, 384 kHz Sigma Delta, 8-times oversampling, double-mono-quadruple
Analogue filter	3rd order phase linear Besselfilter, switchable 60 kHz or 120 kHz
Frequency response	2 Hz - 20 / 22 kHz  (44.1 / 48.0 kSps)
	2 Hz - 40 kHz  (88.2 / 96.0 kSps)
	2 Hz - 80 kHz  (176.4 / 192.0 kSps)
Total harmonic distortion	< 0,001 %
Signal noise (A)	116 dB
Channel separation	110 dB
Analogue outputs
coaxial (Cinch)	2,5 Veff / 22 Ohm fixed. 0 ... 2,5 Veff variable
Symetrical (XLR)	5,0 Veff / 22 Ohm fixed. 0 ... 5,0 Veff variable
Digital output	1 x coax, IEC 60958 (CDDA/LPCM)
Digital inputs	SP/DIF (16 - 24 Bit):
	4 x co-ax, 1 x BNC, 1 x AES/EBU up to 192/24, 1 x TOS-Link up to 96/24
	1 x USB with USB Audio Class 1 (USB full Speed) up to 96/24, adaptive mode
	and USB Audio Class 2 (USB high Speed) up to 192/24 asynchronous mode (drivers available)

 
TotalDAC D1
 
R2R DAC with volume control and headphone out.
Also available with active 2 or 3 way crossover.
 
192KHz asynchronous XMOS USB, optical, RCA and AES-EBU digital inputs, selectable from a remote control.
3.3Vrms max RCA, XLR analog output and 32ohm-600ohm headphone amplifier.
digital volume control, adjusted by a remote control and an OLED display.
phase polarity selected by remote control.
non-oversampling FIR digital filter activated or disactivated by remote control.
 
Another UK company, named Cyrus, has most of her cd-players (for example cyrus cd-i) are above 2volts rms(2,1 volts rms) and dacs are pre-dacs are above 2 volts rms. 
Another UK company, named NAD, produces between many well-respected products also the C 546BEE CD Player,  
http://nadelectronics.com/products/cd-players/C-546BEE-CD-Player#heading-downloads, has 2,2 Volts RMS.
I have heard it, and i never remember the voltage to be too much for the amplifier. It is awarded in 2013.
 
Some of these are really reference products, way better than ifi DSDmini will ever become.
I am not saying that all reference products have 2,5 Volts RMS out.
What i am saying instead, is that the 2,5 Volts rms out idea is definitely not rubbish.
I hope you are not implying that some of the greatest manufacturers in the world having products that have obtained rave reviews, are stupid.
I've stated my opinion clearly, and I believe I have backed up my story more than sufficiently, so, I will stop this discussion now for ever.
Good afternoon everybody and to UK in particular.

 

[technobear]

I can not imagine that so many Great manufacturers producing DACs with RCA out >2 volts RMS are rubish.

It's called marketing!

When a DAC with 2 Volts and a DAC with 2.1 Volts are demonstrated in a hi-fi shop, the one with 2.1 Volts will sound louder and therefore better (because louder always sounds better to the average punter). These manufacturers are just playing the numbers game.

There is no technical reason for any RCA output to be higher than 2 Volts.

You also have no understanding of what a Volume Control does. The position of the Volume Control does not dictate the power output or power consumption of an amplifier. The Volume Control attenuates the input signal. That's all it does. For a given level of sound output, the Volume Control will need to be set lower for a 2.5 Volt input than it would for a 2 Volt input. This does NOT mean that the amplifier is using less power. It only means that the input signal requires greater attenuation. The power consumption depends only on the output power. If the sound is louder then MORE power is being consumed and it matters not in the slightest whether the input is 2 Volts, 0.2 Volts or 20 Volts. For a given sound level, the power consumption will be the same. Only the position of the Volume Control (i.e. the amount of attenuation of the input signal) changes.

Dynamics and loudness are not the same thing. Dynamics refers to the difference in level between the loud bits and the quiet bits. Most modern hi-fi already has dynamic range greatly exceeding that of any recorded music, let alone that of the human ear so there is no advantage to increasing it further. Technically using XLR balanced circuits does give an additional 3dB of dynamic range but it is unlikely most people will hear it. Balanced can sound better because it eliminates the effects of the cables and connections and any EMI or RFI that gets in. However good quality RCA cables reduce this difference to almost nothing over the lead lengths required by most hi-fi systems.

 

[rickyleelee]

It's called marketing!

When a DAC with 2 Volts and a DAC with 2.1 Volts are demonstrated in a hi-fi shop, the one with 2.1 Volts will sound louder and therefore better (because louder always sounds better to the average punter). These manufacturers are just playing the numbers game.

There is no technical reason for any RCA output to be higher than 2 Volts.

You also have no understanding of what a Volume Control does. The position of the Volume Control does not dictate the power output or power consumption of an amplifier. The Volume Control attenuates the input signal. That's all it does. For a given level of sound output, the Volume Control will need to be set lower for a 2.5 Volt input than it would for a 2 Volt input. This does NOT mean that the amplifier is using less power. It only means that the input signal requires greater attenuation. The power consumption depends only on the output power. If the sound is louder then MORE power is being consumed and it matters not in the slightest whether the input is 2 Volts, 0.2 Volts or 20 Volts. For a given sound level, the power consumption will be the same. Only the position of the Volume Control (i.e. the amount of attenuation of the input signal) changes.

Dynamics and loudness are not the same thing. Dynamics refers to the difference in level between the loud bits and the quiet bits. Most modern hi-fi already has dynamic range greatly exceeding that of any recorded music, let alone that of the human ear so there is no advantage to increasing it further. Technically using XLR balanced circuits does give an additional 3dB of dynamic range but it is unlikely most people will hear it. Balanced can sound better because it eliminates the effects of the cables and connections and any EMI or RFI that gets in. However good quality RCA cables reduce this difference to almost nothing over the lead lengths required by most hi-fi systems.

 
Concur with Mr Technobear. There are some manufacturers who have all the way up to 6v on the XLR outputs. Holy moly. A "side" benefit was during in-shop demos - it "showed" how much better bass (fill in audio superlatives here) in comparison to the other product that had 2v or 3v output was. Amazing, that product sold really well. Let's face it - who of knows how to properly level match? Has your dealer ever level matched in a shop? Even done rudimentary style with the blasted iPhone and decibel meter? Erm.......

 

[Esprit]

Too many volts: http://mytekdigital.com/download_library/Stereo192-dsd-dac_Design_Philosophy.pdf

 

[Esprit]

No news about the Mini?

 

[HalidePisces]

 
When is the Mini supposed to be released?
Thanks

Hi,

Rocky Mountain Audio Fest - 10 October.

It is coming after the iFi Retro system.

Thanks.

So... um, it's past 10 October now. Any new stuff to share with us about the Mini?

 

[jexby]

Seemed the PCB boards for mini had a bit of a delay last week (IIRC) and there was no prototype possible in time for RMAF.

 

[Esprit]

Any news about "real" specs?

 

[vortrex]

Any news on the release date?

 

[HiFiRobot]

And what is the expected pricepoint for this one?

 

[iFi audio]

Hi all,

Major case of feature creep - so we are going to aim for prototype for CES and then launch in Mar.


 
When we have anything close to soup, we'll put it up here.


 
The next new product is the Retro and that is coming in November.


 
Okay, not fully soup, but here you go as we're in a good mood today!






 

iDSD mini
Fully-Balanced DAC (USB/SPDIF/AES-EBU/Bluetooth)
Formats:	44.1/48/88.2/96/176.4/192/352.8/384/705.6/768KHz PCM
	2.8/3.1/5.6/6.2/11.2/12.4/22.4/24.8MHz DSD
	DXD
Filter:	PCM: Standard/Minimum Phase digital, Bitperfect 1, Bitperfect 2; selectable
	DSD: Standard/Extended Range/Minimal analogue, selectable
	DXD: Bitperfect Processing, fixed analogue filter
DAC:	Quad Core Dual Mono Bit Perfect DSD, PCM & DXD DAC by Burr Brown in current output mode (4-DAC Chip; 8-Channel; 16-Signals)
Clock:	Ultra low jitter Crystal Clock (rms jitter < 300 Femtoseconds)
Analogue Stages:	Balanced fully discrete Class A - Non-Feedback I/V conversion by single BISS Supertransistor
	Balanced fully discrete Class A - Non-Feedback Line output buffer using J-Fets and BISS Supertransistors
	High Speed current mode Class A Headphone Buffer with balanced fully discrete Class A - Non-Feedback input buffer using J-Fets and BISS Supertransistors
Volume Control:	Balanced 4-Way precision analogue by ALPS, Remote Control, can be bypassed for Line Outs
Audio Path passives:	Tantalum Oxide Thin Film thin film surface mounted resistors,
	TDK high stability C0G surface mounted capacitors
	Panasonic PolyPhenylene Sulfide stacked film surface mounted capacitors
	Elna Silmic II Electrolytic Capacitors
Input: (selectable)	USB 3.0
	compatible with iPhone,iPod, iPad and Android Devices USB-OTG#
	SPDIF RCA/Optical (only PCM up to 192KHz)
	AES-EBU Balanced
	BNC SPDIF Unbalanced
	Bluetooth with aptX
Audio System Support:	PC - ASIO 2.2, WASAPI, Kernel Streaming (KS), Directsound
	Mac - Core Audio
Output	XLR True Balanced Audio (Output adjustable 4/10V @ 0dBFS [+14dBu/+22dBu])
	Audio RCA (2V/5V @ 0dBFS)
	6.3mm Headphone 4V/10V maximum output
	Headphone Output Power 4,000mW/16R max.
Dynamic Range:	TBD
THD &N (Line)	TBD
THD &N (HP 100mW)	TBD
Output Power (16R):	> 4000mW
PowerSource:	External DC 14V (compatible with 12V Battery systems)
Power Consumption:	< 15W
Size:	220mm x 62mm X 210mm (W X H X D including feet, knobs and connectors)

Cheers.

 

[hugoboss]

Nice specification. Seems like the mini using eksternal adaptor. Just my two cents, chamge the eksternal adaptor withbuiltin power supply with iec connection

 

[tf1216]

Nice specification. Seems like the mini using eksternal adaptor. Just my two cents, chamge the eksternal adaptor withbuiltin power supply with iec connection

 
If the power supply was built into the Mini iDSD that would disallow folks from powering the DAC from a battery.  Maybe a bunch of us early adopters could find a group buy on a battery setup for the Mini.