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Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up - Page 61

post #901 of 14453
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigon_ridge View Post
 

Are you kiddin me? If I owned one of those "defective" Bifrosts, I would definitely send it back to you... to have it autographed and sent back unchanged. It'll become a collector's item. :biggrin: 

 

If you find one, I'll have Mike Moffat sign it...ha!

post #902 of 14453
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcalibur255 View Post
 

 

Heck, we can't even get places like Amazon to offer their 16/44.1 offerings in FLAC instead of compressed MP3.  HDtracks is nice and all, but limited in selection. 

 

On an aside, I do hope one of your chapters does touch on DSD Jason.  I would love to hear yours and Mike's unabashed opinion on it.  I'm sure it is floating around on the forum somewhere but I haven't run across it yet.  I have tried my hardest to stick with PCM optical/coax as much as I can simply because there is too much heresy and doubletalk to know what to believe about anything else (and even this format has it's fair share of that too).  It was a bit vindicating to read that Mike favors the same format.

 

The hope is, of course, that others will follow suit if Apple jumps in with high-res. Of course, the same caveats about recording quality will apply (thank you, Jud.)

 

With respect to DSD, Mike's opinion is that it is a mathematically compromised format that may sound different, but not necessarily better, than PCM. Mike's opinion is not necessarily popular, but it is shared by others, such as Ayre, Benchmark, and Linn. Jud and Mike will probably have to discuss that amongst themselves, but the reality (as I understand it) is, even if analog to digital converters (ADCs) used in recording use a sigma-delta modulator (SDM) at the input, they usually output PCM, and mixing and mastering is usually done in PCM, and many DACs that accept DSD streams convert them internally to some multilevel amalgamation of PCM and SDM before output. Which makes the "DSD is a less convoluted playback method" assertion more contentious. Of course, I could be mistaken, so I leave that to Mike.

 

I know that Mike's ideal recording and playback chain would be a true multibit ladder ADC outputting PCM and a true multibit ladder DAC accepting PCM. Of course, there are many challenges to this, not least of which is that reaching acceptable numbers in the "bit wars" (that is, 24 bits) on a ladder ADC is pretty much a no-go. But I know Mike would bet that if we had, say, a 20-bit ladder ADC and 20-bit ladder DAC running at 96kHz as the start- and end-point of the recording and playback chain, the game would be very different.

 

My opinion on DSD? Let me put on my pragmatic hat first. If it ever becomes a significant part of the library of available recordings, sure, you bet, we'll support it across the line, or create a device that makes supporting it seamless--and we'll do it right, with no SDM-PCM conversion amalgamation. 

 

That said, in my marketing opinion, DSD only fuels the perception that "us audiophiles are a weird bunch, might as well stick with what iTunes is selling." Fighting over formats is really silly. All I want is good music, I don't care so much about the format. And there won't be any large-scale adoption of high-res until we make it (a) simple, and (b) understandable. This is what Neil Young is trying to do, and it's rumored that Apple may also get in with their own combination of black/white, low-res/high-res simplicity which could make for widespread adoption, or at least awareness. Which could change the rules entirely.

 

Also, when we talk DSD, we need to temper our enthusiasm by considering the large storage requirements, the fact that its filtering is drastically different than PCM (and therefore may create a DAC that is good at one thing, but not another, or at least increase cost considerably) and that no non-standard audio format has ever reached critical mass in terms of the number of recordings available, to become a viable, long-term competitor to the mainstream. As Mike says, "How are your HDCDs doing today?"

 

Again, not a popular position to take. But it does fuel additional discussion, right?

post #903 of 14453
Thread Starter 

Oh, and Yggy's digital filter? 18,000+ taps, running a proprietary algorithm based on a 1917 Western Electric paper on time-domain optimization (yes, nine-teen seven-teen, 1917), perfected by a Professor Emeritus of Mathematics at Iowa State (to get around the divide-by-zero problem) and implemented by a RAND Corp mathematician. 

 

The result? The biggest, baddest digital filter in the world. The only true closed-form digital filter that retains the original samples. 

 

Combine this with PCM and a ladder DAC, and forget "add the music to the noise, then filter out the noise" SDM approaches. 

 

In our opinion, of course...

post #904 of 14453
^ Holy cr@ptastic Jason...that's certainly fueled my appetite for yggy tongue_smile.gif
post #905 of 14453
Considering PCM has it's roots around the same time (early 1900's), it's not surprising.
post #906 of 14453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Stoddard View Post

Chapter 13:
“Isn’t the Symbol for USB the Long Flat Rectangle?”

So, if you buy a used Bifrost, and see that the LEDs are wrong, let us know…we’ll change it. Or not. You have a piece of history.
Ha! I had one of those from the first batch, but it was not a USB unit. It would play with the coaxial light on when I was using optical and vice versa. And yes, Jason replaced it right away when I asked him about it.
post #907 of 14453

You can't do any math on 1-bit DSD, so if there is any processing done at all (even a level change), it needs to be converted to PCM. Some mastering engineers, like Bob Katz, jokingly call DSD “PCM Narrow” (because there was a mastering-standard multibit DSD called “DSD Wide”). Bruno Putzeys also doesn't have a kind view of PCM, viewing it as a cynical manipulation of the market by Sony, and he was at Philips when the whole DSD thing was being done. Many of the engineers then thought it was a joke, and not meant as an actual serious product.

 

Anyway, modern converters don't use 1-bit delta-sigma anymore, so whether something is native DSD or not is moot.

post #908 of 14453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Stoddard View Post

Oh, and Yggy's digital filter? 18,000+ taps, running a proprietary algorithm based on a 1917 Western Electric paper on time-domain optimization (yes, nine-teen seven-teen, 1917), perfected by a Professor Emeritus of Mathematics at Iowa State (to get around the divide-by-zero problem) and implemented by a RAND Corp mathematician. 

The result? The biggest, baddest digital filter in the world. The only true closed-form digital filter that retains the original samples. 

Combine this with PCM and a ladder DAC, and forget "add the music to the noise, then filter out the noise" SDM approaches. 

In our opinion, of course...
44319931.jpg

Deliver next week, k?
post #909 of 14453

Thanks for the writeup Jason, both very informative and very much appreciated.  I have gained more useful knowledge on this subject reading this thread today than I have over the course of the last year googling on the subject trying to educate myself.

 

I definitely hear you and agree with the last couple of paragraphs too.  I'd say 98% of my music collection is still made up of my ripped CDs.  Unifying and standardizing a single hi-res format not only improves the chances of widespread adoption but would have benefits for manufacturers too who would have fewer things to design/support on their DACs and transports.  That might get paid forward a bit in lower costs/better performance too.

 

Sadly it will probably never happen.  As long as some companies see a chance at making royalties off the IP there will always be more formats, not fewer.

 

I must say, Yggy sounds exciting.  If its single ended outputs perform equally as well as its balanced outputs then I'll be waiting to buy one.

post #910 of 14453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Stoddard View Post
 

Oh, and Yggy's digital filter? 18,000+ taps, running a proprietary algorithm based on a 1917 Western Electric paper on time-domain optimization (yes, nine-teen seven-teen, 1917), perfected by a Professor Emeritus of Mathematics at Iowa State (to get around the divide-by-zero problem) and implemented by a RAND Corp mathematician. 

 

The result? The biggest, baddest digital filter in the world. The only true closed-form digital filter that retains the original samples. 

 

Combine this with PCM and a ladder DAC, and forget "add the music to the noise, then filter out the noise" SDM approaches. 

 

In our opinion, of course...

 

There is a reason why I am so pumped for the Yggy, way more than I am for the Ragnarok, and it's cause of the fact that its going to be a ladder dac and this filter...cant wait to see it! Im thinking it's going to be as advanced as some of the best computer based digital filtering out there, but without needing all the computer horsepower. 

 

Now we just need to know if it will have i2s, via either hdmi preferably or rj45 if not...

post #911 of 14453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Stoddard View Post
 

Oh, and Yggy's digital filter? 18,000+ taps, running a proprietary algorithm based on a 1917 Western Electric paper on time-domain optimization (yes, nine-teen seven-teen, 1917), perfected by a Professor Emeritus of Mathematics at Iowa State (to get around the divide-by-zero problem) and implemented by a RAND Corp mathematician. 

 

The result? The biggest, baddest digital filter in the world. The only true closed-form digital filter that retains the original samples. 

 

Combine this with PCM and a ladder DAC, and forget "add the music to the noise, then filter out the noise" SDM approaches. 

 

In our opinion, of course...

Good grief, you basing the latest and greatest DAC on a 1917 paper? I thought my vacuum tubes made in the late 40's were old!

post #912 of 14453
Quote:
Originally Posted by john57 View Post

Good grief, you basing the latest and greatest DAC on a 1917 paper? I thought my vacuum tubes made in the late 40's were old!
I know you have your tongue in your cheek. Still have to say - old science does not equal bad science. I'm pretty sure the SR-71 Blackbird from late '50's or early 60's still holds the speed record.
post #913 of 14453
Quote:
Originally Posted by aamefford View Post


I know you have your tongue in your cheek. Still have to say - old science does not equal bad science. I'm pretty sure the SR-71 Blackbird from late '50's or early 60's still holds the speed record.

The publicly released record anyways, top speed is still classified. Even if it's not the fastest the capabilities it has is amazing.

post #914 of 14453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxvla View Post


Ha! I had one of those from the first batch, but it was not a USB unit. It would play with the coaxial light on when I was using optical and vice versa. And yes, Jason replaced it right away when I asked him about it.

Clearly you don't like guessing games eh Max ?:biggrin:

post #915 of 14453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Stoddard View Post
 

Oh, and Yggy's digital filter? 18,000+ taps, running a proprietary algorithm based on a 1917 Western Electric paper on time-domain optimization (yes, nine-teen seven-teen, 1917), perfected by a Professor Emeritus of Mathematics at Iowa State (to get around the divide-by-zero problem) and implemented by a RAND Corp mathematician. 

 

The result? The biggest, baddest digital filter in the world. The only true closed-form digital filter that retains the original samples. 

 

Combine this with PCM and a ladder DAC, and forget "add the music to the noise, then filter out the noise" SDM approaches. 

 

In our opinion, of course...

Then big guy, when are you opening up the pre-order book ? :wink:

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