Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up

Oct 30, 2015 at 1:17 AM Post #8,341 of 194,359
Which synergizes better with the Bifrost - the Liquid Crimsom or the Liquid Red (pictured in glass)?

The Bifrost MB sitting atop a Cavalli Audio Liquid Crimson:


Wish everyone could experience this. Will do my best in my region to allow such for those seeking an extraordinary listening adventure.
 
Oct 30, 2015 at 1:44 AM Post #8,342 of 194,359

Dear AtomicBob,
 
The multi bits, seems like you're being a bit of a smarty with farts & schiit.   Is this a dirty joke? 
 
Anyway, I'll accept it as you wrote it. 
 
I collect French Impressionistic Paintings which seem lovelier than the same subject captured with a Canon 1D and most photographic Art needs touching up to soften the unpleasant.  
 
My wife spends $25 on lipsticks for the same reason, I'd guess.  Nobody will say she'd look better without.  
 
I commonly round numbers up or down to smooth things out.
 
"The tongue can be sharper than the sword" .
 
Sooooo, I guess that I'd rather like a softer, nicer version of a musical truth ( or any truth ) than the cold-hard scrutiny of a perfectly focused revelation that causes headaches.  
 
I'll have to try living with one of these Multi's. 
 
Thanks for trying to explain.
 
Tony in Michigan
 
Oct 30, 2015 at 9:43 AM Post #8,344 of 194,359
 
Dear AtomicBob,
 
The multi bits, seems like you're being a bit of a smarty with farts & schiit.   Is this a dirty joke? 
 
Anyway, I'll accept it as you wrote it. 
 
I collect French Impressionistic Paintings which seem lovelier than the same subject captured with a Canon 1D and most photographic Art needs touching up to soften the unpleasant.  
 
My wife spends $25 on lipsticks for the same reason, I'd guess.  Nobody will say she'd look better without.  
 
I commonly round numbers up or down to smooth things out.
 
"The tongue can be sharper than the sword" .
 
Sooooo, I guess that I'd rather like a softer, nicer version of a musical truth ( or any truth ) than the cold-hard scrutiny of a perfectly focused revelation that causes headaches.  
 
I'll have to try living with one of these Multi's. 
 
Thanks for trying to explain.
 
Tony in Michigan

The analogy I presented is just another Schiity pun, of which I accept responsibility. It does seem to resonate and linger with the audience.
 
Absolute scrutiny is a tool necessary for the production side of content generation enabling detailed analysis. Recreational enjoyment of the content often benefits from just a little softening of the edges. - atomicbob
 
Oct 30, 2015 at 9:53 AM Post #8,345 of 194,359

  Mr.AtomicBob,
 
Rather extravagent praise there, what's making it so hot? ( that is an infrared image, isn't it?) 
 
 

  The Cavalli Audio Liquid Crimson it's sitting on.
(it says it's only 91°F, barely a spring day here)

That is an infrared picture from a FLIR. As @jimmers states, it is the Liquid Crimson heating the Bifrost MB. Normally the BiMB is just a few degrees F warmer than room ambient.
 
Oct 30, 2015 at 10:16 AM Post #8,346 of 194,359
.... I will also mention that I am impressed with the channel matching (of all three MB DACs), even of the distortions measured. This may have something to contribute to the exceptional sense of space, dimension and ability to discern starting and stopping edges of sounds with such clarity and precision. Many thanks to the Schiitheads responsible for these technical marvels.

Senn mentions hand picked +/- 1 dB matching in the promotional material for the HD650 - presumably because that was at the time a new, better than previous practice, Good driver matching for a headphone

 
we also have Senn's HD800 certificate graphs - again showing lots more than 1 dB variation over frequency in serial production of a flagship audiophile headphone
 

 
so why would anyone expect "exceptional" channel matching in a DAC to have any responsibility for "...sense of space, dimension and ability to discern starting and stopping edges of sounds with such clarity and precision"

 
when "ordinary" Audio DAC do few % ~ few times  0.1 dB already?  that's still 3-10x better than "bragging rights Good" audiophile headphone L,R driver match

 
and for competent Audio DAC that possible few % channel mismatch is a flat gain difference - not bobbing and weaving frequency and phase over audio

 
while bobbing and weaving frequency and phase over audio is what L/R  headphone driver tolerance is, could reasonably be expected to affect "sense of space, dimension", no?

 
it is a commonplace for consumer grade audio DAC to “place” “audio events” like musical notes, percussion edges to within nanoseconds – even at 16/44
 
DAC noise floor below recording noise from microphones, studio electronics, venue/recording room noise is also common – almost guaranteed for any recorded music source that involved mag tape is again easily found at many price level
how does "ability to discern starting and stopping edges of sounds with such clarity and precision" get better than what was recorded, is delivered in commercial recordings?
 
 
 
Good Schiit may be nice to own - but why does so much bad Logic/Psycoacoustics/Engineering need to flung?
 
Oct 30, 2015 at 10:17 AM Post #8,347 of 194,359
   
Well, it may not be firmly closed, but if we get into amps, we have to answer the question, "What can we bring to the party that Emotiva doesn't--without being several times their price?"
 

Yeah, I see your point Jason. A great and unique speaker amp for under $1000.00 is probably too difficult for a team like Schiit.
 
Probably should stick to something easier given the level of ability and creativity you guys bring.
 
Oct 30, 2015 at 10:47 AM Post #8,349 of 194,359

Mr.AtomicBob,
 
I think you nailed it on something I've been pondering for some time:  why the Citizen population is happy with iPhone levels of music reproduction, which I think the digital folks call 320.
 
I seek-out a higher level but not the ultimate level, hence my love of 16/44 Redbook standard.
 
The group populating these Headphone sites are searching for the Ultimate revelation of musical perfection and accuracy.  
 
I felt that when I met you, quite some time ago, you would be revealing some great truth about audio things. My patience has been rewarded.  
 
 I was never able to put into words the concept that you just delivered in your last paragraph about scrutiny and softening.  I'll keep testing it but suspect it applies to many things and in a very general way, to life.  I'll be sending my CEO a nice report on this ( I'll give a "Nutty" Professer called AtomicBob in PNW full credits ).   
 
Thank you 
 
Tony in Michigan
 
Oct 30, 2015 at 10:53 AM Post #8,350 of 194,359
  The AD8512 was warranted to keep the <1LSB DNL, INL, and noise specs for the AD5547 as specified by Analog devices.

 
Pretty nebulous response on the face of it, Mike.  Would that be the AD5547's low distortion, low noise, low input bias current, low offset voltage, fast settling time or easy I/V interface with the AD5547's feedback resistor? 
wink.gif
   
 
Oct 30, 2015 at 11:41 AM Post #8,352 of 194,359
  Senn mentions hand picked +/- 1 dB matching in the promotional material for the HD650 - presumably because that was at the time a new, better than previous practice, Good driver matching for a headphone

 
we also have Senn's HD800 certificate graphs - again showing lots more than 1 dB variation over frequency in serial production of a flagship audiophile headphone
 

 
so why would anyone expect "exceptional" channel matching in a DAC to have any responsibility for "...sense of space, dimension and ability to discern starting and stopping edges of sounds with such clarity and precision"

 
when "ordinary" Audio DAC do few % ~ few times  0.1 dB already?  that's still 3-10x better than "bragging rights Good" audiophile headphone L,R driver match

 
and for competent Audio DAC that possible few % channel mismatch is a flat gain difference - not bobbing and weaving frequency and phase over audio

 
while bobbing and weaving frequency and phase over audio is what L/R  headphone driver tolerance is, could reasonably be expected to affect "sense of space, dimension", no?

 
it is a commonplace for consumer grade audio DAC to “place” “audio events” like musical notes, percussion edges to within nanoseconds – even at 16/44
 
DAC noise floor below recording noise from microphones, studio electronics, venue/recording room noise is also common – almost guaranteed for any recorded music source that involved mag tape is again easily found at many price level
how does "ability to discern starting and stopping edges of sounds with such clarity and precision" get better than what was recorded, is delivered in commercial recordings?
 
 
 
Good Schiit may be nice to own - but why does so much bad Logic/Psycoacoustics/Engineering need to flung?

 
Why should anything better than some generally accepted (insert specific attribute and limits here) matter? Indeed, those are good questions. I've spent a lifetime as and EE and scientist asking myself those questions. Trying to make correlations between objective and subjective. Use ABX testing where ever possible. Wish I could locate a QSC ABX tester. No longer in production and those who own them won't give them up. I may have to design and build one when I finally have more time not committed to corporate research.
 
Now if one believes that all equipment that meets some given attribute limits sound the same, please save yourself time and frustration. Do not waste time reading any further.
 
I have long used a Benchmark in the studios and labs. Didn't pay too much attention to details of space, soundstage, dimension, it all sounded clean enough and everyone was predisposed to hearing recordings as a distinct reduction in realism. Hey, ODAC would be great as it nearly matched performance of the Benchmark at a substantial reduction in cost. I have both of those too.
 
Hearing great musicians with well tuned instruments in good acoustic spaces, on decent cans (back then HD580) through the live feed from a really good binaural setup such as a Jecklin disc with Schoeps mics or a Neuman KU 100 and then the output of the A/D/A one could readily hear the sound drop in realism. Not everyone has the ability to have this experience unless you are a studio rat, musician, acoustic researcher, pro audio designer/mfgr or have an in to a studio or mastering facillity somewhere.
 
So several years ago I became more interested in headphone listening for more than voice over and dialog editing. Recreational listening hadn't been something I would do with my free time given the listening fatigue of the audio / acoustic work all day. Maybe there were some improvements. So I acquired equipment to begin A/B listening and also equipment to make measurements for myself. Initially I would A/B by myself. But we all know how Expectation / Confirmation Bias can skew those results. Eventually I asked for help, with someone else making the choice for connections to the A/B switch and draping with a towel to obscure visibility of those connections. My initial measurement equipment was RMAA and best interface I could acquire without spending a fortune. Eventually that became an RME Fireface and then RME Fireface UC. Started acquiring other measurement SW such as Room EQ Wizard and ARTA which were also useful for room acoustics. Headphone measurements too with a custom built dummy head. So far, I could detect what I thought might be improvements. But I also noticed that some setups did not result in listening fatigue as quickly as others.
 
Ok, fast forward a bit. I now have a PrismSound dScope, a 16 bit ADC capable Picotech Oscilloscope, several Tektronix oscilloscopes, a laser displacement measurement system, a Klippel QC, Fluke DMMs, ACO Pacific microphones, Bruel & Kjaer mic calibrator, FLIR camera, Philips frequency counter, stratum 1 time reference, NIST traceable calibration for many of those items, and a whole lot more experience in both listening evaluations and measuring audio components than several years back.
 
So now I present measurements on several forums and make comments of what I think might be responsible for the auditory differences I believe I can now perceive. I try to make it clear that these are my own opinions, my own perceptions and YMMV. Though until I have an ABX tester to demonstrate in a public setting, say at an AES meeting (I am an AES member), then my comments will always be subject to doubts, even by myself. If it is SW only (comparison of VST plugins as an example) I have the Fraunhofer Pro Codec VST encoder which has live ABX comparison of audio streams. While intended as an aide to encoder parameter adjustments, it works well for many other purposes.
 
But one thing that has become clear to me. I can return to previous equipment and work for long hours and experience listening fatigue setting in not far into a session. Then move back to what I consider better components, with listening fatigue being delayed or possibly not occurring at all in the session (in the very latest system you see me talking about.) On average, I spend 5 to 10 hrs six days a week using my ears for audio / acoustic research both for work and recreation. To this end I have also had to learn to work at 78 dB SPL instead of the more typical 83 or 85, and heaven forbid, not at the godawful 95 to 110 levels to which some listen.
 
There have been many hours reading the works of Leo Beranek, Harvey Fletcher, Floyd Toole, F. Alton Everest, Havelock & Kuwano & Vorlander. Studying the basilar membrane and critical bands, the bark scale, and on and on. Moving beyond matlab simulations by performing experiments in the acoustic lab and hearing for myself.
 
So there is a peek into my background and how I have come to the place I currently reside in my thinking on what I perceive with my human auditory system using audio components. - atomicbob
 
Oct 30, 2015 at 12:30 PM Post #8,354 of 194,359
  <snip>
 
So there is a peek into my background and how I have come to the place I currently reside in my thinking on what I perceive with my human auditor system using audio components. - atomicbob

Since he's so quick to dismiss other's opinions if they don't coincide with his (and he doesn't have any info in his profile), perhaps @jcx should take a page out of your playbook and share his background as well.
 
While it wouldn't explain away why he always comes off as a condescending know-it-all, we'd at least know if he has a background that might back up his comments instead of always having to assume that he is merely talking out of his a**.
 
Oct 30, 2015 at 12:42 PM Post #8,355 of 194,359
So Jason…
 
This is both a request and a suggestion.
 
I've gone through your site several times over several revisions (I like the latest one, btw, the use of closed and open blocks on the products page works really well to indicate what category you're in) and I realized recently there's a problem that none of the revisions have solved.
 
There's no page or image that really gives a sense of the relative sizes of the products.
 
Because each of those fabulous, carefully-taken, amazingly-lit photographs is scaled to fit the available space, they all have the same visual heft. The only real clues to size are to compare RCA jacks (etc.) on the back shots of the DACs, or the relative sizes of the 1/4" jacks on the front of the amps. This can be quickly seen on the Guides page - although the products are many different sizes, the images are all the same size. And yes, I know the product specs include dimensions, but translating printed linear inches into relative visual volume is not intuitive.
 
So my request is this: can you please post a photo here of your different sized products stacked up. I have a Modi 2U, and by comparing that to the rest of the products in the stack, I could get an idea of how big they are and how much space they take up. A camera phone shot would do the job.
 
My suggestion is this: do the same for the Guides pages. At the top of each Guide have a single photo of e.g. the DACs stacked, so that as you look down the rest of the page at all the same-sized photos, you have a better idea of how much bigger the Bifrost, say, is than the Modi. This one you would probably want to hand off to your photographer.
 
Thanks!
 

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