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Schiit Happened: The Story of the World's Most Improbable Start-Up
Jan 6, 2015 at 10:18 AM Post #4,681 of 150,839
Depends on the electronics and manufacturer. Some manufacturers do in house burn in of some dozens of hours before shipping to smooth the majority out.
 
I had the experience of visiting an amplifier manufacturer who just finishing soldering the last cables right in front of me, and he never had turned the amp before completely (I believe he did turn on the power supply though while in lab for testing, and turned the entire amp before for more testing and measurements). We set up the amp in the showroom and listened to the entire Jazz at the Pawnshop XRCD. It was amazing how rough and constricted it sounded in the first song, then somewhat better in the third song and by the end of the CD it was a lot better. Amazing experience.
 
So burn in of electronics, in my experience, is a very steep asymptotic curve: very noticeable in the first few hours, and less and less noticeable while time goes by. IMO every manufacturer should burn in their electronics at least some 24hs or so to get rid of most of it.
 
Jan 6, 2015 at 12:16 PM Post #4,683 of 150,839
senorx12562 said:
Afaik,burn-in has only ever happened between my ears.
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Don't want to start a flame war, but burn in is very real, don't think it is always a positive occurrence, but your generalization is false.  
 
Jan 6, 2015 at 12:43 PM Post #4,684 of 150,839
Burn-in in electronics is sometimes used to weed out products with "weak" components. It's got to do more with reliablity in such cases.
 
Changes due to burn-in may have different root causes, but should be relatively small in reasonable quality products. Would be kind of bad if it wasn't so IMO. Kind of a box of chocolates as a function of time issue.
 
On headphones, no matter how much time I spent with my now gone DT990, sound did not get less bright. Current headphones I have still sound pretty acceptable to me and w/o what I consider significant changes in sound signature (subjectively).
 
Jan 6, 2015 at 1:00 PM Post #4,686 of 150,839
wildcatsare1 said:
  Don't want to start a flame war, but burn in is very real, don't think it is always a positive occurrence, but your generalization is false.  
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Because you said so? That's very "subjectivist" way of thinking.
 
Jan 6, 2015 at 1:09 PM Post #4,687 of 150,839
madwolfa said:
   
Because you said so? That's very "subjectivist" way of thinking.
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Yes, it is, but not just because I say so, because many other "ears I trust" have experienced the phenomenon of burn in. I do lean towards the "subjectivist camp". This World is far more complex than what you engineers can measure, so "subjectivist", I am.
 
Jan 6, 2015 at 1:12 PM Post #4,688 of 150,839
wildcatsare1 said:
  Yes, it is, but not just because I say so, because many other "ears I trust" have experienced the phenomenon of burn in. I do lean towards the "subjectivist camp". This World is far more complex than what you engineers can measure, so "subjectivist", I am.
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I also have ears. And measurements. That kinda trumps "just ears", doesn't it?
 
But enough offtopic. 
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Jan 6, 2015 at 1:19 PM Post #4,689 of 150,839

Yes Sir, I do think measurements are of high value as well, so on that we agree. I am just a bit more, "all inclusive" in the reporting of audio experience. Cheers!
beerchug.gif
, and enough....
deadhorse.gif
  
 
Jan 6, 2015 at 1:49 PM Post #4,690 of 150,839
I think it's good to quantify sound however individuals do perceive sounds differently. Science has tested my hearing and it's perfectly. In fact The doc says I am a mutant because I hear low level sound so well. However do to a beating I took, I can
 
Jan 6, 2015 at 2:25 PM Post #4,691 of 150,839
Jan 6, 2015 at 3:22 PM Post #4,692 of 150,839
ultrabike said:
  Burn-in in electronics is sometimes used to weed out products with "weak" components. It's got to do more with reliablity in such cases.
 
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I once worked for a company that made high end digital audio components. In the later years of operation, the sub $1k equipment was made in our overseas facility, and to my recollection was never tested past a simple power up, does it make sound basic test before it was boxed up and shipped to the states. Initial failure rates weren't high per se, but they did happen occasionally. The more expensive gear was made in the USA and we burned them in for ~ 2 days before a more comprehensive final test. This cut the DOA rate down to a fraction of a %. We also had fewer comments about noticing burn-in improvements from customers. What really sucks is when there is a new lot of a specific part that decides to puke after a 100 hrs or so. by that time the customer has owned it for a week or two and then we started getting calls from dealers with the same issue. At least a pattern makes it easier to troubleshoot the problem, but by that time you've got a few dozen customers pissed off that they spent $2k on a CD player that has a serious problem. Then you have to make it right, look through serial number history, call up dealers to return stock, etc. Sounds like Schiits issue with the initial run of Fullas sorta fell into a similar category. It happens even when you try to take every precaution to make sure it doesn't.
 
But that's the difference between models that are sold in the hundreds over a couple year period vs. the cheaper ones that are sometimes sold in the tens of thousands of units. You just don't have the luxury of long burn in periods when you sell high quantities. When they're hand built in small batches it's a lot more feasible, especially when you're reputation in the industry is on the line when it comes to expensive, premium products.
 
Jan 6, 2015 at 4:04 PM Post #4,693 of 150,839
crazychile said:
   
I once worked for a company that made high end digital audio components. In the later years of operation, the sub $1k equipment was made in our overseas facility, and to my recollection was never tested past a simple power up, does it make sound basic test before it was boxed up and shipped to the states. Initial failure rates weren't high per se, but they did happen occasionally. The more expensive gear was made in the USA and we burned them in for ~ 2 days before a more comprehensive final test. This cut the DOA rate down to a fraction of a %. We also had fewer comments about noticing burn-in improvements from customers. What really sucks is when there is a new lot of a specific part that decides to puke after a 100 hrs or so. by that time the customer has owned it for a week or two and then we started getting calls from dealers with the same issue. At least a pattern makes it easier to troubleshoot the problem, but by that time you've got a few dozen customers pissed off that they spent $2k on a CD player that has a serious problem. Then you have to make it right, look through serial number history, call up dealers to return stock, etc. Sounds like Schiits issue with the initial run of Fullas sorta fell into a similar category. It happens even when you try to take every precaution to make sure it doesn't.
 
But that's the difference between models that are sold in the hundreds over a couple year period vs. the cheaper ones that are sometimes sold in the tens of thousands of units. You just don't have the luxury of long burn in periods when you sell high quantities. When they're hand built in small batches it's a lot more feasible, especially when you're reputation in the industry is on the line when it comes to expensive, premium products.
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Yes, it depends on what the costumer is willing to pay for, which factors into cost. Sometimes as a product matures some cost reductions in the process may apply.
 
Prior to burn in, a system could go through in-circuit test which requires the development of a test fixture. The cost of it depends on how complicated the design is and how much coverage is desired. Some system tests could also be incorporated to the in-circuit test for more $. Proper systems test which happen after the in-circuit tests (if in the process) can do a simple power up, but could be much more elavorate. This not only factors on the launch costs but also in test times which mean $ as well.
 
An in-circuit test would probably catch the Fulla production issue if it was the oscillator, provided there is access through test points (though one could get clever) and other components don't end up masking problems. It's more $ though.
 
There is also the ocational "meet the deadline" rush where production managers skip steps and stuff like that. **** happens.
 
EDIT: Dunno what the Fulla production process is. The above is just the bits and pieces I learned from working with completely different products many years ago.
 
Jan 7, 2015 at 7:18 AM Post #4,694 of 150,839
wildcatsare1 said:
Yes, it is, but not just because I say so, because many other "ears I trust" have experienced the phenomenon of burn in. I do lean towards the "subjectivist camp". This World is far more complex than what you engineers can measure, so "subjectivist", I am.
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I find it odd that so many people on Head Fi have so much contempt for the Engineering profession.

What's up with that anyway? :confused_face_2::rolleyes:
 
Jan 7, 2015 at 7:37 AM Post #4,695 of 150,839
chris j said:
wildcatsare1 said:
Yes, it is, but not just because I say so, because many other "ears I trust" have experienced the phenomenon of burn in. I do lean towards the "subjectivist camp". This World is far more complex than what you engineers can measure, so "subjectivist", I am.
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I find it odd that so many people on Head Fi have so much contempt for the Engineering profession.

What's up with that anyway? :confused_face_2::rolleyes:
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Ironic, no? Surely most people realize that the products they love are designed by engineers...
 
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