I hope Fiio and iBasso make more profit from selling many fairly-priced DAPs than iRiver will, from selling a relatively small number of exorbitantly priced DAPs.
 
The reason why is not sour grapes - it's quite simple.
 
Fair business approach vs. Greedy business approach.
 
 
Who would you rather do business with?

levanter said:

Funny how people are jumping on AK's throat when they or iBasso or Calyx haven't released their new models. Just because the pricing is not to your liking doesn't mean they do not have the right to price it the way they do.
If Stax or FAD or others can release a $3k plus headphones/iem I don't see why the DAP makers can't do the same. The end sound is only as good as the source, and I don't find any fault of them for pricing the way they did. In the first place a number of headphones/iems are already grossly overpriced yet people are still jumping in and encouraging newer upgrades with higher prices. No reason why DAP makers can't do the same.

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Simply because they are pushing the price envelope and not in a good way. I find it rather funny how you think that their pricing policies are justify. That why I'll be cheering on iBaso and the Fiio corner. No matter how expensive is the portable rigs, it will never eclipse the sound of a really good desktop system. And Stax does not come out with a new top of the line headphone every year like AK is doing with their DAP lines. They actually tripled thew price of the AK100 in less than 2 Years.

Stax is unique and doesn't have any known rivals.
I have simply stopped buying from companies that charge way too much for incremental improvements and naming them on Headfi will get me mauled by the mods and fellow headfi members.

That said, roll on the DX90, I might be an iBasso fan but the DX100 was not worth it to me with all the bugs and the giant build for the price.

mython said:

I hope Fiio and iBasso make more profit from selling many fairly-priced DAPs than iRiver will, from selling a relatively small number of exorbitantly priced DAPs.

The reason why is not sour grapes it's quite simple.

Fair business approach vs. Greedy business approach.


Who would you rather do business with?

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Haha I do business with whoever is selling what I want. I won't be bias or ostracize any companies unless they are doing something illegal like human trafficking or child labour
I'm sure AK, iBasso and FiiO has their own market.. so they'll all survive and profit either way.

purk said:

Simply because they are pushing the price envelope and not in a good way. I find it rather funny how you think that their pricing policies are justify. That why I'll be cheering on iBaso and the Fiio corner. No matter how expensive is the portable rigs, it will never eclipse the sound of a really good desktop system. And Stax does not come out with a new top of the line headphone every year like AK is doing with their DAP lines. They actually tripled thew price of the AK100 in less than 2 Years.

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I'm sorry, but how do you justify/quantify prices? It does not matter how often a company releases a product, especially when AK only started releasing theirs just a year ago.
I find it funny people can justify spending $1000s on multiple headphones or IEMs and call for murder when a DAP maker does the same. How often do you buy a DAP compared to headphones/IEMs?
The sales for DAP is considerably less compared to them, I don't see anythint wrong with the pricing.

The problem is that other companies will start copying these prices and very soon we will be looking at entry level DAPs for $1000.There aren't too many audiophile DAP companies so we won't have any other option but to fork out.
As someone whose family used to have Sony everywhere, even alarm clocks, I won't be buying the ZX1 as it can't justify its price. A weak amplifier for $700 is a joke of epic proportions since we aren't talking Minidisc anymore. I hope Fiio/iBasso smash it at half the price.

Still won't be selling my Minidisc/Hi-MD collection though

It was bound to happen sooner or later.
And everything starts from somewhere, the same with headphones/iems.
But you don't have to worry about entry level priced at that range.. there will always be some who will cater to the lower range since most consumers are at that level.

I think most of us are a bit concern if Astell & Kern is really at "that" level.

levanter said:

It was bound to happen sooner or later.
And everything starts from somewhere, the same with headphones/iems.
But you don't have to worry about entry level priced at that range.. there will always be some who will cater to the lower range since most consumers are at that level.

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Bubbles only last so long. You'd do well to remember that!
 
People will not indefinitely pay inflated prices, even though some may do so for a period of time.
 
What folks should understand about this whole 'Astell & Kern' marketing exercise is that it is not about selling DAPs.
 
iRiver's engineers are creating some wonderful pieces of electronics, but what iRiver are actually selling is an idea, and that idea is that "we want you to believe that we deserve to charge a vastly higher profit margin than our competitors". The DAP is entirely secondary in this equation.
 
If it was about the DAP, then there would be no need for all the pretentiousness - just produce a damn good DAP and sell it for an unpretentious price and plenty of people will happily buy the product and few people will have any reason to feel resentment - that's good business, all round.

cosmicholyghost said:

I think most of us are a bit concern if Astell & Kern is really at "that" level.

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Haha, there will always be a higher level as newer products comes out.
But when the AK120 was released, you'll find there is little in comparison for the SQ and features in such a small portable package with a killer design and build quality.

mython said:

Bubbles only last so long. You'd do well to remember that! :wink_face:

People will not indefinitely pay inflated prices, even though some may do so for a period of time.

What folks should understand about this whole 'Astell & Kern' marketing exercise is that it is not about selling DAPs.

iRiver's engineers are creating some wonderful pieces of electronics, but what iRiver are actually selling is an idea, and that idea is that "we want you to believe that deserve to charge a vastly higher profit margin than our competitors". The DAP is entirely secondary in this equation.

If it was about the DAP, then there would be no need for all the pretentiousness - just produce a damn good DAP and sell it for an unpretentious price and plenty of people will happily buy the product and few people will have any reason to feel resentment - that's good business, all round.

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Bubbles tend to last longer in this industry. The headphones/iems have been thriving even with the increase in prices.
I for one am glad with the existence of AK. They raised the awareness for the growing desire for a high end portable and increased the conpetition and variety in the market.

musicheaven said:

  Can you please take my order after taking my money:
 
2-microSD card readers
2-ES9018K2M Dacs
1-DX50 dap enclosure called DX90
1-UI DX90 UI a la DX50
1-Coax Out
1-LO (a must)
1-HO (not a must)
1-set of side buttons (that would be swell)
1-Micro USB input for file transfers, would love to have DAC in functionality.
 
I think that's it for now, I'll wait in line you tell me when ready'

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I think that line will be really big. I just can imagine how next year will be. Damn I´m sorry about my own wallet

Most people who buy premium items are impulse buys. I believe some regretted buying TOTL when they see competition offering basically the same thing at a lower price. I'm not worried if AK240 is priced above 2K, there will always be competition offering the same thing at much lower price.
 
I suppose to others AK120 is well worth the price if they like the sound they are getting out of it. Heck, I would have gotten myself one if I did like the sound or at least flexible enough for amping.
 
In the end I think most people still puts SQ as there priority and everything else second.
 
I'm still amazed how the market is moving and with so many competition battling for market share. Let each company show their cards (DAPs) and the market will decide.

levanter said:

I'm sure AK, iBasso and FiiO has their own market.. so they'll all survive and profit either way.
I'm sorry, but how do you justify/quantify prices? It does not matter how often a company releases a product, especially when AK only started releasing theirs just a year ago.
I find it funny people can justify spending $1000s on multiple headphones or IEMs and call for murder when a DAP maker does the same. How often do you buy a DAP compared to headphones/IEMs?
The sales for DAP is considerably less compared to them, I don't see anythint wrong with the pricing.

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Like many others here in this thread, I feel that the AK is overpriced for the performance given.  Not every mfgs are created equal, since you mention Stax.  It took them nearly 10 years to released the SR009.  They produces handcraft audio products that stand the test of time.  The Lambda pro of 1980's are still functionally well in my stax system and both the Lambda & Omega lines continue to fetch high price in a used market.  The AK120 will be worth considerably less in a years if they continue releasing the next flagship & limited edition models in this fashion.  Ultrasone Edition 19th anyone?    
 
Oh, $1200 would be my price tag for the AK240.
 

 Bubbles tend to last longer in this industry. The headphones/iems have been thriving even with the increase in prices.
I for one am glad with the existence of AK. They raised the awareness for the growing desire for a high end portable and increased the conpetition and variety in the market.

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In a way I do, but I'm afraid others will copy their marketing strategies and us, the customer, will end up with a poor price/performance product.  BTW, I own a MS-AK100.

purk said:

Like many others here in this thread, I feel that the AK is overpriced for the performance given.  Not every mfgs are created equal, since you mention Stax.  It took them nearly 10 years to released the SR009.  They produces handcraft audio products that stand the test of time.  The Lambda pro of 1980's are still functionally well in my stax system and both the Lambda & Omega lines continue to fetch high price in a used market.  The AK120 will be worth considerably less in a years if they continue releasing the next flagship & limited edition models in this fashion.  Ultrasone Edition 19th anyone?   :tongue_smile:  

Oh, $1200 would be my price tag for the AK240.


In a way I do, but I'm afraid others will copy their marketing strategies and us, the customer, will end up with a poor price/performance product.  BTW, I own a MS-AK100.

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Stax has been in the industry long enough to establish themselves. While AK is still new, iRiver has been in the industry over 10 years. High end DAP market is still fairly new. Give them time and they will also establish themselves like Stax if they stay on in this business.

levanter said:

Stax has been in the industry long enough to establish themselves. While AK is still new, iRiver has been in the industry over 10 years. High end DAP market is still fairly new. Give them time and they will also establish themselves like Stax if they stay on in this business.

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LOL! Oh, the irony!
 
If a person (or group of people) wishes to build a longterm business, capable of withstanding the challenges and adversities of business, what is the most important thing of all, that a business relies upon for it's very survival? Customers.
 
iBasso and Fiio clearly understand something that iRiver's accountants do not: Customers will be (relatively) faithful to a company if they feel they are being treated fairly by that company. Using glossy adds in a thinly-veiled attempt to convince customers that they should pay a vastly inflated profit margin does not constitute 'treating customers fairly'.
 
Go and look at that latest ad in Absolute Sound - what is it advertising?
 
1) A BRANDNAME, far more than a DAP
 
and
 
2) it is Appealing to people's VANITY  ("Be the Ultimate")
 
 
It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so shamelessly contrived.
 
 
 
 
Come on iBasso & Fiio, let's see some red faces in the iRiver boardroom... show them, and the DAP-buying public, that you can build something that sounds every bit as good, for less than one third the price...

mython said:

LOL! Oh, the irony!

If a person (or group of people) wishes to build a longterm business, capable of withstanding the challenges and adversities of business, what is the most important thing of all, that a business relies upon for it's very survival? Customers.

iBasso and Fiio clearly understand something that iRiver's accountants do not: Customers will be (relatively) faithful to a company if they feel they are being treated fairly by that company. Using glossy adds in a thinly-veiled attempt to convince customers that they should pay a vastly inflated profit margin does not constitute 'treating customers fairly'.

Go and look at that latest ad in Absolute Sound - what is it advertising?

1) A BRANDNAME, far more than a DAP

and

2) it is Appealing to people's VANITY  ("Be the Ultimate")


It'd be hilarious if it wasn't so shamelessly contrived.




Come on iBasso & Fiio, let's see some red faces in the iRiver boardroom... show them, and the DAP-buying public, that you can build something that sounds every bit as good, for less than one third the price...

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Lol whether you like it or not, this is how the world/business works. There will be a market for both AK and others.
It's not like the SQ for AK is poor, it is actually quite good. Whether they are worth the price or not is subjective.
HM901 is around the same price as 120, although they might sound better there are compromises such as poor battery life, brick size and their UI which AK does better. I don't see many complaining about the pricing for HM901 compared to the 120.

And these are businesses. They market for a wider global coverage to earn more revenue. It's only normal marketing strategy for businesses as to what they are doing. FiiO and iBasso should do the same IMO.