Out Of Your Head - new virtual surround simulator

I've been enjoying Out of Your Head for the past week or so. It hasn't been perfect but I can't imagine going back to standard 2 channel headphone listening with a limited soundstage.
 
I should state upfront that I have never had the pleasure of listening to software like Isone or hardware like the Smyth Realiser. I've long desired to purchase the Smyth Realiser but it's clear to me now that it is not in my future. One of the questions that future reviewers of OOYH will have to address is how it compares to listening experiences with software like Isone and hardware like the Smyth Realiser. I'm as curious as anyone else to hear from users of those products but, at this point, my enjoyment of OOYH is so substantial that it is almost beside the point for me. Others, of course, will disagree but this is just my person resolution and, as they say, YMMV.
 
So, to begin, what is my current setup? I have a Dell core i5 Windows laptop running jriver version 19. I am using the Audioquest Dragonfly DAC plugged into the laptop and sending the audio out to a pair of 10 year old Sennheiser HD 600's. I have a pair of used Sennheiser HD 800's coming soon but I have yet to listen through anything other than the HD 600's. The Dragonfly maxes out at 24/96 so it works well with OOYH which, as you know, is limited to 24/48. I also have signed on to receive a Geek and a Geek Pulse but they won't be arriving until january and april, respectfully(assuming that Light Harmonic's targeted release dates are on schedule). Warren P. Chi and Mike Mercer have talked up the Geek  and Warren has gone so far as to say that it is essentially head and shoulders above the Dragonfly. Well, we've have to wait and see but the future does seem bright.
 
Thus far, I have listened to all of the OOYH presets and I have purchased the Home Theater 7.1 and Sasha 2.0 presets with plans to ultimately purchase the Egyptian Theater preset for computer-based and LCD HDTV based(via HDMI for video) movie watching and surround listening.
 
I have enjoyed listening to the other presets and I believe that the pricing of 25 USD per preset is reasonable. Nonetheless, based on my personal preferences, my equipment and, perhaps, my anatomic features and older adult hearing (with my hearing frequencies topping out at 14kHz), the HT and Sasha presets are the ones that work best for me. Opting not to purchase a given preset is largely an indication that the given room selected for preset is not to my taste. This is not dissimilar to the judgments we all make when we listen to a given sound system at the home of a friend or in a dealer's showroom. Having said that, my preset preferences are a reflection(no pun intended - as a friend says,  that would be "punishment") of where I'm at at this point in time, and I reserve the right to develop changes in preference and perception as time and experience increases. 
 
19 presets can be a bit overwhelming at first  blush but I also see no reason why Darin couldn't add even more presets as he finds more speaker setups in rooms to sample in the future.
 
Regarding purchasing new presets for each computer used, I do understand Darin's reasons for this, nonetheless, it would be great to be able to remove OOYH from a computer that you no longer use and transfer it to a new computer that you do use. This would effectively mean having only so many active preset licenses at a given time, in some ways similar(and ethically the same) vis a vis how it is now. When you retire your old PC(or, in the future, mac when OOYH is available for mac based systems) you would be able to transfer your preset license to your new computer. When you buy a license for Windows 8 for a single user you can only run it on one PC at a time.You can remove it from your old PC and put it on your new or other PC(or mac with bootcamp). In my mind, the same policy should exist for OOYH. Having said that, I fully understand that it is Darin's software enterprise and potential buyers can either play by his rules(well, as with all other software you do have to click "Agree" before using it) or otherwise choose not to purchase his software and spend your money elsewhere.
 
I do find that the sound  volume needs to be increased or decreased when going from one preset to another (HT is one of the louder presets, Sasha one of the quieter ones). I also find the Bypass setting to sound a bit more bland when compared to listening to conventional headphone 2 channel listening without a crossfeed option though this may be somewhat of a subjective experience in some measure based on the lower sound volume of the Bypass preset.
 
What about OOYH works best for me? It's like selling real estate, i.e., "location, location, location." The soundstage is absolutely wonderful. Does it sound like I'm listening to a 2.0 or 5.1 sound system in a real listening room? For me, the answer is not really but close enough for me to thoroughly enjoy the experience. Some recordings do sound best in 7.1(tome) while others sound best(to me) in 2.0. Joni Mitchell's For the Roses album, for instance, sounds good in both but the vocals are too isolated in the middle channel with the 7.1. James Taylor's Flag and Hourglass albums sound great either way, but his voice sounds less nasal and more natural in 2.0 configuration. I find the timbre of musical instruments to sound more natural and engaging in 2.0 but there are still recordings where the wow factor of 7.1 overrides my preference for a more natural sound.
 
What do I find fault with re: OOYH? I wish that I could take a trip to visit Darin Fong San Diego to have the software calibrated for my own headphones. That is unlikely to happen, at least for now(I live in Massachusetts but I do have in laws in the Los Angeles area). I am, nonetheless, happy to make do with what I have for now.
 
Second, the 24/48 limitation is an issue given that I have an extensive library of music which includes a number of 24/96, 24/192 and DSD files. jriver is great is that it converts all of the above to PCM at 24/48 on the fly, as it were. I also have to admit that high resolution FLAC and DSD, while greatly impressive when listening to loudspeakers in an actual(versus virtual) room, is much less of an issue of me when listening through headphones with OOYH engaged. In truth, redbook CD rips sounds wonderful and engaging when listened to via OOYH.
 
The 3rd disadvantage for me is one of software compatibility. While I have experienced ZERO dropout problems through properly setup jriver(thank you Darin for your excellent responsiveness re: customer service), I have found that the DAC in the Woo Fireflies has, thus far, proved a nonstarter with OOYH as the Fireflies' DAC specifies an ASIO driver(see the Fireflies manual). OOYH specifically does NOT work ASIO per Darin Fong and per my experience.
 
Like all headphone listening, OOYH will not give your visceral experience of palpable, thunderous bass that a good room based system will. I know that the 
Smyth Realiser sells a physical board to give back some of that experience and it remains to be seen as to whether Darin might ever contemplate and perhaps release such hardware in the future.
 
I understand that OOYH is, in this very thread, reported to work with WAPASI, so I am also looking forward to pair the Fireflies with my excellent and well reviewed Auralic Vega DAC which is also configured to work with WAPASI. This is something that I will set up on thursday(2 days from now) when I have more time.
 
Regarding customer service, I have traded a few emails with Darin and he has been wonderfully responsive. At the same time, I would recommend that he post a pdf file on the OOYH website detailing specific settings with specific music software programs to make set up of the program more streamlined for the buyer(also obviating the need to answer the same questions over and over again). The Auralic website has a similar pdf which I've found incredibly helpful in setting up the Auralic Vega with various software programs without having to bother the folks in Auralic customer service. As has been done with Auralic, Darin can post a pdf with screenshots specifying set ups with the more commonly used audio software programs.
 
The online demo page, BTW, is awesome. When watching and listening to the videos I was totally engaged and I was disappointed for the videos to end.
 
I've rambled on enough in this post but I just wanted to share my early thoughts and impressions of OOYH with other Head-Fiers. I look forward to reading others' experience Darin's new software.
 
Esau

Thank you Esau for the thoughtful review. I really appreciate you taking the time to write it. And of course, thank you for purchasing Out Of Your Head!
 
I just wanted to address a few things mentioned in your review...
 
With regard to licensing, this aspect has been a difficult aspect of the software. The main problem I had was that basically everyone I consulted with in the software business told me that there was NO way to really copy protect the software. If someone wanted to "crack" it, they would. The licensing scheme I have in place is much more complicated than I wanted, but it is also very secure. I could go one forever about all the schemes I wanted for licensing, but the net result is what I have now given the resources I had to implement it. The bottom line though, is that I believe that most people generally are not trying to steal software. So, all I ask is that people who purchased licenses e-mail me if they want something changed, transferred, deactivated, activated, etc. I am a very reasonable person and will do everything I can to accommodate everyone. I believe that this "personal" service will allow me to accommodate people and at the same time deter people who are trying to "steal" the software. Believe me, I wish I could make the licensing more flexible, but I think a minority can ruin it for everyone else like many things in life.
 
Regarding 24/48 processing:
Actually, Out Of Your Head processes everything at 32bit/48Khz. I felt that that was a good balance between good sound quality and processing overhead. I wanted people with older computers to still be able to process 8 channels of audio AND play back a 1080p H.264 movie. SO for the initial release, that is where we are. Our current prototype versions can process at up to 192Khz at 8 channels, but you need to have a fast computer to be able to do it while playing a movie. Yes, I know. Just do 2 channels at 192K instead. Don't worry, it's coming, but most likely there will be an additional charge for an add-on, or a higher end version of Out Of Your Head for those audiophiles who want the additional feature. I think most of the average public (non-audiophiles) will not care or want the higher data rates.
 
ASIO support? Yes, we would love to be able to support ASIO devices, but again, it's a matter of resources and time. Does the Woo WA& only work in ASIO mode? From the manual, it says:

TIPS: It is strongly recommended to use a media player that supports ASIO output
mode for the highest playback quality.

Click to expand...

Does that mean it will only work in ASIO? Will it work in non-ASIO mode with JRiver? In theory if the WA7 will work in WDM (DirectSound) mode in Windows, then it should work with Out Of Your Head.
 
But, I just wanted to clarify...Out Of Your Head  currently can only output to devices via Windows WDM. It will not output via WASAPI or ASIO. But I have found that all the USB DAC's I have tried all work with standard Windows WDM output. The Auralic VEGA DAC manual says: "The device should now be visible in Windows and any applications as both ASIO and WDM audio device." So it should work without problem with Out Of Your Head as a WDM device. I realize that there are a lot of opinions out there about never using WDM for the best sound quality. We're working on supporting ASIO or WASAPI. To be honest though, we are working on getting the other platforms implemented before we go back and update the Windows version of Out Of Your Head.
 

I know that the Smyth Realiser sells a physical board to give back some of that experience

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The Smyth Realiser does not sell a physical board for the low frequencies. The device does have a subwoofer output that can be used to drive a subwoofer or a tactile transducer. We could do something similar, but since we are software only, we would have to require the user's computer to have a multi-channel output so we could output L and R channels and a subwoofer output. That would rule out most USB DAC's. The Realiser is a fantastic piece of hardware and offers different functionality that Out Of Your Head, but it is nearly identical in terms of sound quality. Of course then there's the slight difference in price.   I even recommend to people to buy a Realiser if they want all the additional functionality it offers. I think both products have a place in the market.
 
Regarding documentation:
Yes, I need to do a lot more documentation. I am in the process of updating the manual with ALL the questions and answers I have been getting from people who have downloaded the trial or purchased licenses.
 
Thank you again Esau for all the great feedback. I love all the feedback, good or bad. It helps me immensely.
 
-Darin

Good job, Darin.  I wish you every success with this.  Had fun with the demo page and I must say OOYH is really pretty close to my Realiser on some of the systems.  Very worthwhile for your pricing, except, I'm Mac, so as soon as you have that sorted, I'm in.  The idiotic input choices of the Realiser and its tortuous user interface are what sells OOYH to me.  Software allows more music player, DAC, sample rate and format choices as they inevitably evolve.  The Realiser is already dated.  I think your project is inspired.
 
Have you thought about an additional service whereby you personalise a PRIR for OOYH remotely?  I have an idea that I'll PM you about.

Definitely subbed. Well done Darin - played around with the demo, and seriously considering buying.
 
Is there any way one could easily apply a purchased configuration to actual digital music files - so that you could have same effect on a portable player?

shep said:

  Good job, Darin.  I wish you every success with this.  Had fun with the demo page and I must say OOYH is really pretty close to my Realiser on some of the systems.  Very worthwhile for your pricing, except, I'm Mac, so as soon as you have that sorted, I'm in.  The idiotic input choices of the Realiser and its tortuous user interface are what sells OOYH to me.  Software allows more music player, DAC, sample rate and format choices as they inevitably evolve.  The Realiser is already dated.  I think your project is inspired.
 
Have you thought about an additional service whereby you personalise a PRIR for OOYH remotely?  I have an idea that I'll PM you about.

Click to expand...

Hi Shep,
 
Thanks for posting.
 
For Realiser owners, I do offer a service to convert your PRIR and HPEQ into a custom preset for Out Of Your Head. This way you can use your own personalized measurements in the Out Of Your Head software. It's great for Realiser owners who want to listen to their Realiser in multiple locations, while traveling, etc. without having to take their Realiser with them or buy a second one, etc. Of course this also makes your options for source material much more flexible, especially for two channel music.
 
I have yet to set up my online store with the PRIR conversion service, but the cost is $150 per custom preset. You also get an Out Of Your Head license for 50% off. So for your first conversion, the cost is $199 total and each additional conversion is $150.

brooko said:

  Definitely subbed. Well done Darin - played around with the demo, and seriously considering buying.
 
Is there any way one could easily apply a purchased configuration to actual digital music files - so that you could have same effect on a portable player?

Click to expand...

Yes, you can record the processed output of Out Of Your Head. This is a good temporary solution until Out Of Your Head is released for portable devices. Or, of course, if you want to use a dedicated DAP.
 
First, the best free Windows sound recorder software is Audacity. You can use any audio recording app you want though.
 
Then, in some cases, you have to enable the "Stereo Mix" device as the default recording device in the Windows Sound control panel.
 
OK, I will just outline all the steps here:
 

• Launch Out Of Your Head and make sure you have your built-in sound card as your output device. (Don't select a USB DAC or any other add-on output device.)
• Open you media player app and make sure you can hear the Out Of Your Head audio coming from your built-in audio playback device
• Open the "Control Panel\Sound" control panel
• Select the "Recording" tab.
• If you don't see a device in that list called "Stereo Mix", then go to the next step.
• Right click on any device in the list and make sure "Show Disabled Devices" and "Show Disconnected Devices" are checked
• Right-click on "Stereo Mix" and select "Enable"
• Right-click on "Stereo Mix" and select "Set as Default Device"
• open Audacity
• On the top tool bar, towards the right of the window, select "Primary Sound Capture" as your Audacity recording input. like this:
• You will have to adjust the recording levels, or you may have to adjust the input recording level by sliding the control next to the microphone icon. Set it as high as you can, but low enough to avoid any clipping. Of course, the record level will also depend on the source you are recording.
• To record, just hit the Record button in Audacity and Audacity will record any audio being output on your computer. So if you are playing music through Out Of Your Head, your recording will be the processed output of Out Of Your Head.

 
This is not ideal since you will still have to trim the recordings, save/rename them. For a lot of music, this is a pretty tedious process, but it does work.
 
I hope this helps,
 
-Darin

Thanks Darin
 
That's a great help - and I will try.  I just need to free up some cash now in order to buy the software .....

Hi,
I haven't been able to get the OOYH to work with JRiver MC19. I followed the instructions and tried all kinds of things but could not get it to work with Wasapi. I use a Musical Fidelity V-Link and V-Dac. MC would not let me select 8 channels, and when it played with 2 channels it bypassed OOYH.
 
I then tried the demos from the demo page. I tried them with several good headphones (Audio Technica 900 for one) and all had a rather processed sound to me when OOYH processing was going on, i.e. a bit phasey (if that's a word) and hollow.
 
And speaking of the demo page, what is the second song, and who sings it? It's the 2 channel on and off demo.
 
Chris

crisnee said:

  Hi,
I haven't been able to get the OOYH to work with JRiver MC19. I followed the instructions and tried all kinds of things but could not get it to work with Wasapi. I use a Musical Fidelity V-Link and V-Dac. MC would not let me select 8 channels, and when it played with 2 channels it bypassed OOYH.
 
I then tried the demos from the demo page. I tried them with several good headphones (Audio Technica 900 for one) and all had a rather processed sound to me when OOYH processing was going on, i.e. a bit phasey (if that's a word) and hollow.
 
And speaking of the demo page, what is the second song, and who sings it? It's the 2 channel on and off demo.
 
Chris

Click to expand...

Hi Chris,
 
Did you try using DirectSound in JMC 19? That's the recommended configuration since it's a lot easier to get working. If you want to use WASAPI, did you try following the instructions I wrote in an earlier post? WASAPI is much less forgiving. In JMC, the source material must be converted to 48K sampling to work with Out Of Your Head. Out Of Your Head currently cannot accept varying sample rate sources via WASAPI.
 
Did you have your Musical Fidelity selected as the output device in JMC? If so, then the sound would bypass Out Of Your Head. The sound would go directly to your DAC.
 
Please try DirectSound in JMC. You can follow the instructions in my earlier post: http://www.head-fi.org/t/689299/out-of-your-head-new-virtual-surround-simulator#post_9959729
 
As far as the pre-rendered demos go, the sound you are hearing is definitely processed. You should be hearing the sound of the speakers and the room which is significantly different that what you hear in headphones. The room reflections and interactions are what establishes the location of the speakers in the room and the acoustics of the room itself. That's the exact sound that was being produced in that room. The sound should not sound like what you are hearing in headphones. If the speakers have less bass or different frequency response, then that's what you will hear.
 
However, if you prefer a much less reflective room and hear less room interactions, then I recommend you try some of the recording studio presets or home theater presets. Generally the recording studios are much more damped and have much more sound proofing to reduce room interactions. 
 
On the other extreme, if you listen to the Egyptian Theater preset, that is a huge movie theater, so you will hear lots of "processing" which is essentially very long reverberations and can sound "hollow". I am guessing you will not find that to your liking either.
 
That's why I have a variety of presets. Everyone has their preferences in terms of the sound of the room and speakers. The nice thing is that you have a choice and can change the sound with the click of the mouse. Will everyone be able to find something they like? With 19 presets, I don't think that's enough to please everyone. That's like saying that 19 different headphones are enough to accommodate everyone's tastes. But that's why I let you try all of them to see if there is something you like. Plus I am always adding to my library of rooms.
 
Even if you don't find anything you like for listening to music with Out Of Your Head, I really hope you try watching a movie. In that case, I think it's an experience that you can't find anywhere else with headphones.
 
Lastly, here the song on that demo:
Shantel Nicole Grace: 

Your Love Goes On​

 
-Darin

darinf said:

  Plus I am always adding to my library of rooms.

Click to expand...

So are all the PRIRs your personal ones? I doubt adding more and more rooms is better than using many different ears for less rooms. After all, if the ears are not compatible, no room is going to sound "right".
 
Good luck for the endeavour, I guess some people could find it useful. But unlike Shep I don't find anything "dated" in my Realiser, _personal_ PRIRs and the features are in a class of their own..

hekeli said:

 
So are all the PRIRs your personal ones? I doubt adding more and more rooms is better than using many different ears for less rooms. After all, if the ears are not compatible, no room is going to sound "right".
 
Good luck for the endeavour, I guess some people could find it useful. But unlike Shep I don't find anything "dated" in my Realiser, _personal_ PRIRs and the features are in a class of their own..

Click to expand...

Yes, you are right. I have thought about finding people with different ear shapes and sizes and doing a bunch of measurements in the same room. I hope to do that someday. 
 
Yes, certainly personal PRIR's are the best. That's why I offer personalized measurements for those who want me do personal measurements for them. Otherwise for Realiser owners, I can offer them the ability to use their own PRIR's on multiple devices if they want that flexibility. I love my Realiser, but I also like being able to "listen" to it on a plane, when I'm traveling, etc. and use my favorite USB DAC, etc. You get more flexibility for relatively little cost.

Thanks for your response Darin. 
 
Yes I did follow instructions re Wasapi. But your choices look a lot different than mine. For instance there is no choice for just Wasapi, it's always Wasapi and a dac combination, or Wasapi and OOYH. I am using MC19 version .67. Perhaps your version is different.
 
Anyway, I went back to Direct and did get it to work, but it didn't sound very good at all. I think something must not be right. Also there is no choice for primary sound driver, just a choice for channels.
 
The sound was constricted and the volume was much lower when using the settings than when switching to bypass mode, and I mean much lower (I have everything set to 0.0 db [top volume level] in the panel).
 
-Chris

crisnee said:

  Thanks for your response Darin. 
 
Yes I did follow instructions re Wasapi. But your choices look a lot different than mine. For instance there is no choice for just Wasapi, it's always Wasapi and a dac combination, or Wasapi and OOYH. I am using MC19 version .67. Perhaps your version is different.
 
Anyway, I went back to Direct and did get it to work, but it didn't sound very good at all. I think something must not be right. Also there is no choice for primary sound driver, just a choice for channels.
 
The sound was constricted and the volume was much lower when using the settings than when switching to bypass mode, and I mean much lower (I have everything set to 0.0 db [top volume level] in the panel).
 
-Chris

Click to expand...

Hi Chris,
 
Yes, I am using JMC 18, not 19. I need to upgrade to see what's changed. So, for now, all the instructions I have are for 18.
 
One thing to try just to see if it's working is to use VLC media player instead. This way we can see if the sound is the same from both JMC and VLC. If so, then we know it's not something specific to the media player software.
 
The output level can be affected by several different controls. Sound like you have the Out Of Your Head volume set all the way up. Then you can also check your Windows mixer levels. Those volume controls can control the output level of your DAC. Then I assume you also have the volume all the way up in JMC 19.
 
But, the output level of the processed sound from Out Of Your Head will always be lower than when it's bypassed. The level has to be lower to avoid clipping in our processing. 
 
The next thing to do is to compare the online demos: http://outofyourhead.net/demo/ to the sound you are getting from the trial software. They should sound exactly the same, given the same preset. I think most of the prerendered demos are using either the Acoustic Zen preset or the Magical preset. If they sound a lot different, then something is wrong. (I know it's hard to compare without the same source material.)
 
Unfortunately, I have been finding that many people's first reaction to hearing the processed output is that it sounds weird and nothing like the sound in bypass mode. It's true since we are doing a lot of processing to the sound and we are adding "real" reverb, etc. which is inherent in the sound of the room. I concede that it sounds completely different than traditional headphone listening. But, if you were sitting in that same room with those speakers, you would know that the Out Of Your Head sound is the same as the sound in that room with those speakers. I think it takes a little getting used to for your brain to properly interpret what you're hearing.
 
It reminds me of those "autostereograms" where you have to stare at what seems like a random pattern. the image just looks weird and you can't see anything. Then eventually with some practice, you can actually see a real 3D shape that pops out of the screen, etc. But until your eyes and brain "get it", it looks like nothing:
 

 
Or these:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/487531/headphone-stereogram
 
-Darin

crisnee said:

  Thanks for your response Darin. 
 
Yes I did follow instructions re Wasapi. But your choices look a lot different than mine. For instance there is no choice for just Wasapi, it's always Wasapi and a dac combination, or Wasapi and OOYH. I am using MC19 version .67. Perhaps your version is different.
 
Anyway, I went back to Direct and did get it to work, but it didn't sound very good at all. I think something must not be right. Also there is no choice for primary sound driver, just a choice for channels.
 
The sound was constricted and the volume was much lower when using the settings than when switching to bypass mode, and I mean much lower (I have everything set to 0.0 db [top volume level] in the panel).
 
-Chris

Click to expand...

Hi Chris,
 
I installed JRiver Media Center 19. I was able to get WASAPI to work.
 
Here's the instructions:
 
That's it. It should work after that. 
 
-Darin
 
-Darin

Yes listening and getting used to the sound seems like a good idea. However, the problem is the 2 minute per setting allotted time. I can hardly get setup to listen (get the volume level right and myself situated) and the time's up. I think I'd need at least ten minutes to sit back and relax and let myself get into the sound.
 
Anyway, thanks for your quick responses.
 
Chris