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Comparisons of the Liquid Lightning and KGSSHV Solid State Stax Amplifiers

Sep 22, 2013 at 2:30 PM Post #151 of 211
Those measurements come from me with my personally owned 30 plus year old
Sound technology 1700a very old school completely analog thd measuring system.
Typically measuring more than double that of today's digital things.
Measured with 10x attenuators into 1kv standard 120 pf load. Measured at various frequencies
From 20 hz to 20 kHz push button controlled just before amplifier clipping.
Typically .01% thd at 100vrms stator to stator at 1khz


Really don't care if anyone believes me.
 
Sep 22, 2013 at 2:32 PM Post #152 of 211
ultrabike said:
   
The BHSE is a fantastic amp. I know you might not be into tube amps these days, but you should definitively give it a listen.
 
There is nothing to change or discuss. You like your KGSSHV better than the LLMK1 and that is that. No wires-with-gain here. You just happen to enjoy this rig better than that and that's what it's all about.
 
As far as business models, I understand. Which is why it's sort of unfair to compare a DIY amp vs a commercial amp based on $ put down.
 
As far as simulations goes, believe me, you would be surprised how inaccurate they can be, and how often they need to be tweaked to match real world performance.
Click to expand...

Funny you should mention that. If a simulation is done right, building a circuit is only going through the motions. I've done it in my career (I'm a professional engineer who works in the electronics manufacturing industry for over 15 years) and especially my brother (EE) who own's his own analog design company of about 50 people (with customers such as Samsung and Intel). So we've been around the block many times with regards to simulations.
 
BTW, the difference I heard weren't about what I enjoyed, I truly believe they were truly on different levels of performance; no question to my ears. 
redface.gif
 
 
Sep 22, 2013 at 2:36 PM Post #153 of 211
kevin gilmore said:
Those measurements come from me with my personally owned 30 plus year old
Sound technology 1700a very old school completely analog thd measuring system.
Typically measuring more than double that of today's digital things.
Measured with 10x attenuators into 1kv standard 120 pf load. Measured at various frequencies
From 20 hz to 20 kHz push button controlled just before amplifier clipping.
Typically .01% thd at 100vrms stator to stator at 1khz


Really don't care if anyone believes me.
Click to expand...

 
I think you do care.
 
This is for a KGSSHV correct? Numbers look similar to what Stax publishes for all their amps. 
 
Do you have the THD+N vs frequency data? IMD results? Crosstalk? FR?
 
Sep 22, 2013 at 2:43 PM Post #154 of 211
macedonianhero said:
  Funny you should mention that. If a simulation is done right, building a circuit is only going through the motions. I've done it in my career (I'm a professional engineer who works in the electronics manufacturing industry for over 15 years) and especially my brother (EE) who own's his own analog design company of about 50 people (with customers such as Samsung and Intel). So we've been around the block many times with regards to simulations.
 
BTW, the difference I heard weren't about what I enjoyed, I truly believe they were truly on different levels of performance; no question to my ears. 
redface.gif
 
Click to expand...

 
I'm a professional electronics engineer as well (also for over 15 years). I do design, not manufacturing (though I have manufacturing experience from may earlier days). We have found out that many commercially available stuff doesn't quite cut it, and develop our own stuff sometimes.
 
Regarding levels of performance, I feel the LLmk1 is definitively a TOTL amp.
 
Sep 22, 2013 at 2:48 PM Post #155 of 211
ultrabike said:
   
I'm a professional electronics engineer as well (also for over 15 years). I do design, not manufacturing (though I have manufacturing experience from may earlier days). We have found out that many commercially available stuff doesn't quite cut it, and develop our own stuff sometimes.
 
Regarding levels of performance, I feel the LLmk1 is definitively a TOTL amp.
Click to expand...

 
And I would say it certainly is not....and my thoughts are in-home, not meet listening sessions (which I am not a fan of...even with my own initial impressions). You're welcome to your opinion and it is certainly valid for you, but we'll never agree on your last statement. But then again, let's not forget everyone...this is just audio. No big deal. Life is so much more.
 
BTW, if you need help with simulations...I can PM you my brother's company's name....they're very good and come highly recommended. 
 
Sep 22, 2013 at 2:51 PM Post #156 of 211
Ah, such a subjective hobby. 
 
 
It seems if everyone with a contrary experience needs to voice their opinion.
 
If you like the LL, go express yourself in the LL appreciation thread.
 
No need for the pissing match, Peter just wrote it how he heard it.
 
Sep 22, 2013 at 2:52 PM Post #157 of 211
paradoxper said:
  Ah, such a subjective hobby. 
 
 
It seems if everyone with a contrary experience needs to voice their opinion.
 
If you like the LL, go express yourself in the LL appreciation thread.
 
No need for the pissing match, Peter just wrote it how he heard it.
Click to expand...

 
Exactly. 
size]

 
Thanks!
 
Sep 22, 2013 at 2:54 PM Post #158 of 211
macedonianhero said:
   
And I would say it certainly is not....and my thoughts are in-home, not meet listening sessions (which I am not a fan of...even with my own initial impressions). You're welcome to your opinion and it is certainly valid for you, but we'll never agree on your last statement. But then again, let's not forget everyone...this is just audio. No big deal. Life is so much more.
 
BTW, if you need help with simulations...I can PM you my brother's company's name....they're very good and come highly recommended. 
Click to expand...

 
LOL! I agree with that.
 
Yes, you can PM me your brother's company name, thanks for the offer. 
beerchug.gif

 
Sep 22, 2013 at 3:00 PM Post #159 of 211
paradoxper said:
  Ah, such a subjective hobby. 
 
It seems if everyone with a contrary experience needs to voice their opinion.
 
If you like the LL, go express yourself in the LL appreciation thread.
 
No need for the pissing match, Peter just wrote it how he heard it.
Click to expand...

 
Haha! Good spirited pissing matches is what audiophilia has always been about. I've always thought the unsaid rule on HF was that if one wanted to discourage contrary opinions in their thread, one included the word "appreciation" in the title of their initial post. Otherwise telling people with contrary opinions to essentially buck-of and head to their respective appreciation thread is rather bad form.
 
I've written reviews of stuff I didn't like and I didn't care if people posted their disagreements. In fact, I would scared if everyone did agree.
 
Sep 22, 2013 at 3:10 PM Post #160 of 211
purrin said:
   
Haha! Good spirited pissing matches is what audiophilia has always been about. I've always thought the unsaid rule on HF was that if one wanted to discourage contrary opinions in their thread, one included the word "appreciation" in the title of their initial post.
Click to expand...

 
I really took this thread to be a review of the LL and KGSSHV. 
 
I'm all for reviews, such as yours considering you've had both amps. However Sachu contributed assumptions.
 
My point was if you've had both, please contribute. If you've only heard the LL or HV, well, go to the other place and rant and rave or seek out the LL thread.
 
It's about comparativeness, no?
 
Sep 22, 2013 at 3:37 PM Post #161 of 211
macedonianhero said:
  Thanks! Amazing how personal people can take this...it's only audio. 
Click to expand...

 
"Only" audio? This is a huge industry and we're talking about people's livelihoods. I don't see much constructive debate here regarding the merits of products outside of the two in the original post. I appreciate the comparison between the LL MK1 and the KGSSHV as does everyone who posts here. It's important that we continue to post impressions such as these in order to give the community more data points. 
 
What I don't appreciate are the periphery comments and summary dismissal of an entire manufacturer's stable of products based off a single comparison. I also dislike how vehemently people are defending the actions of others in this thread. This has moved beyond a useful discussion of 2 amps and into a thread containing all kinds of rabble rousing by folks who own periphery products to the ones being discussed.
 
I sold my KGSSHV to someone who would appreciate it more than I do due to how boring it was to me in an extended comparison between it and BHSE. I told myself I'd consider moving back into the STAX world once I've had more time to compare the BHSE, the Electra, and the LL MK2 with both the SR-009 and SR-007.
 
I've never owned a Cavalli product and yet I've owned a dynalo, a gilmore lite+DPS, a KGSSHV, and a balanced Dynahi, two of which are currently still in my possession. I would need to draw my own conclusion regarding Alex's products and I most likely won't pursue the LL MK1, but that doesn't mean that based off a single comparison I'm going to dismiss all the amps in his stable. 
 
Quote:
Simulation results too are also welcome if that's what's on hand. You'd be surprised how accurate they can be. 
wink.gif
 
Click to expand...

 
I've worked in consumer electronics for years and I've never had an occasion where the simulation was more than an okay indicator for real world performance. 
 
Sep 22, 2013 at 3:46 PM Post #162 of 211
zerodeefex said:
   
"Only" audio? This is a huge industry and we're talking about people's livelihoods. I don't see much constructive debate here regarding the merits of products outside of the two in the original post. I appreciate the comparison between the LL MK1 and the KGSSHV as does everyone who posts here. It's important that we continue to post impressions such as these in order to give the community more data points. 
 
What I don't appreciate are the periphery comments and summary dismissal of an entire manufacturer's stable of products based off a single comparison. I also dislike how vehemently people are defending the actions of others in this thread. This has moved beyond a useful discussion of 2 amps and into a thread containing all kinds of rabble rousing by folks who own periphery products to the ones being discussed.
 
I sold my KGSSHV to someone who would appreciate it more than I do due to how boring it was to me in an extended comparison between it and BHSE. I told myself I'd consider moving back into the STAX world once I've had more time to compare the BHSE, the Electra, and the LL MK2 with both the SR-009 and SR-007.
 
I've never owned a Cavalli product and yet I've owned a dynalo, a gilmore lite+DPS, a KGSSHV, and a balanced Dynahi, two of which are currently still in my possession. I would need to draw my own conclusion regarding Alex's products and I most likely won't pursue the LL MK1, but that doesn't mean that based off a single comparison I'm going to dismiss all the amps in his stable. 
 
Quote:
Simulation results too are also welcome if that's what's on hand. You'd be surprised how accurate they can be. 
wink.gif
 
Click to expand...

 
I've worked in consumer electronics for years and I've never had an occasion where the simulation was more than an okay indicator for real world performance. 
Click to expand...

 
 
If done correctly with the newer software available, simulations are very, very good and if that's what available, then I'd like to see it (with the disclaimer of it being simulated data). Still better than nothing, no? Regardless, looks like KG just listed some real world measurements of the KGSSHV.
 
While this is big bucks, for us, the non-MOTs....it's only a hobby (or should be
size]
) and that's my point! 
 
Sep 22, 2013 at 4:02 PM Post #163 of 211
MH, simulations are definitively a needed step, but they are not good enough at all. Actual characterization of a product is almost always a requirement. You are not going to see simulated results on a data sheet.
 
Sep 22, 2013 at 4:05 PM Post #164 of 211
i really do hope the thread isn't removed or locked. TO me there is a LOT of information to be gleaned from it. One of the best threads in a while actually where there have been good rebuttals and calling out for verifiable sources and spirited discussion. 
 
In the end the titular observations  is academic in nature for comparing a DIy amp of a Stax derived design to a out of production amp. Thanks for taking the time to post your impressions Peter, I don't agree with your views on the LLmk1 but you certainly are entitled to it. 
 
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