[nemomec]

 

  I had also last year the PWDII Dac here in my electrostatic setup. The PS Audio sounds to bright with all my E-Stats, especially SR-009 with a very technical unatural sound signature. The SR-009 is in my experience a extrem transparent headphone without own signature and the performance scales and depends on your source setup (amp, dac, etc.).

So which DAC do/did you use with the 009 that wasn't bright in your opinion?
Thanks.

There are different good ones like the Audio-GD Devices with PCM1704 chip like Master 7or NFB 10.32. For best results i use now after the very good Audiobyte Black Dragon DAC, the outstanding Rockna Wavedream II Dac.

 

 

[joseph69]

  There are different good ones like the Audio-GD Devices with PCM1704 chip like Master 7or NFB 10.32. For best results i use now after the very good Audiobyte Black Dragon DAC, the outstanding Rockna Wavedream II Dac.

 

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll have to wait and hear how the PWDll/BHSE sound together with the 009 before anything. The Audio GD-7/NFB 10.32/Black Dragon would be more within my price range then the Wavedream ll DAC. 

 

[astrostar59]

  Thanks for the suggestions, I'll have to wait and hear how the PWDll/BHSE sound together with the 009 before anything. The Audio GD-7/NFB 10.32/Black Dragon would be more within my price range then the Wavedream ll DAC. 

I would recommend an Audio Note Kit DAC 4.1. It is easy to build (all included) and is a great non oversampling DAC with tubed output and tube regulated power supply. Smooth as silk and very realistic. 

 

[comzee]

Regarding Audio-GD stuff, and the DAC 4.1, I wouldn't recommend either.
I own a Master 7, it's fantastic, and has a darker signature (as far as DACs go).
The DAC 4.1 is fantastic too. 
 
Although, I would highly recommend the Yggdrasil. It is a magical device, far outpacing the M7 and (from what I've read) the DAC 4.1 (and the DAC 4.1 is almost 1k more + you have to assemble yourself).
 
I've even read reviews from people comparing the Ygg to Analog DAC (by MSB). Ygg seems to be better there too.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Ygg is the best DAC is the world right now. The things it does for my 009 is really unreal every time I turn it on.
(don't get caught up in, it costs more, it must be better, MSB flagship is 100k, and I've seen comparisons between that and the Ygg too, same level if not Ygg is better). 
 
my 2 cents. 

 

[joseph69]

 
I would recommend an Audio Note Kit DAC 4.1. It is easy to build (all included) and is a great non oversampling DAC with tubed output and tube regulated power supply. Smooth as silk and very realistic. 
 

 
Originally Posted by comzee /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
Regarding Audio-GD stuff, and the DAC 4.1, I wouldn't recommend either.
I own a Master 7, it's fantastic, and has a darker signature (as far as DACs go).
The DAC 4.1 is fantastic too. 
 
Although, I would highly recommend the Yggdrasil. It is a magical device, far outpacing the M7 and (from what I've read) the DAC 4.1 (and the DAC 4.1 is almost 1k more + you have to assemble yourself).
 
I've even read reviews from people comparing the Ygg to Analog DAC (by MSB). Ygg seems to be better there too.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Ygg is the best DAC is the world right now. The things it does for my 009 is really unreal every time I turn it on.
(don't get caught up in, it costs more, it must be better, MSB flagship is 100k, and I've seen comparisons between that and the Ygg too, same level if not Ygg is better). 
 
my 2 cents. 

Thanks for the suggestions, but as I said, I need to hear the PWDll with the BHSE first.
I find theta the PWDll is a very nice DAC…the best I've ever heard (with my current set up). Also the seller of my PWDll mentioned that there is slightly more bass with the Yggy which he purchased after I bought his PWDll. He also mentioned he may otherwise not have even purchased the Yggy because it is very close in sound to the PWDll. Everybody hears differently. I'm in no rush at all to buy another DAC until I hear my combo. And I know very well that more money doesn't mean that something is better. I'll just have to wait and hear for myself, but I do appreciate the suggestions for the future incase I need them. 

 

[astrostar59]

  Regarding Audio-GD stuff, and the DAC 4.1, I wouldn't recommend either.
I own a Master 7, it's fantastic, and has a darker signature (as far as DACs go).
The DAC 4.1 is fantastic too. 
 
Although, I would highly recommend the Yggdrasil. It is a magical device, far outpacing the M7 and (from what I've read) the DAC 4.1 (and the DAC 4.1 is almost 1k more + you have to assemble yourself).
 
I've even read reviews from people comparing the Ygg to Analog DAC (by MSB). Ygg seems to be better there too.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Ygg is the best DAC is the world right now. The things it does for my 009 is really unreal every time I turn it on.
(don't get caught up in, it costs more, it must be better, MSB flagship is 100k, and I've seen comparisons between that and the Ygg too, same level if not Ygg is better). 
 
my 2 cents. 

You owned the Audio Note 4.1 or heard it? 

 

[purk]

  Do you think that different DIY T2's are likely to sound different? 

More of less to a minor degree I believe.  I only have one T2 and can't afford another 

 

[lojay]

More of less to a minor degree I believe.  I only have one T2 and can't afford another 

Fair enough I just wonder why different builds of KGSSHVs sound so different. The headinclouds build I had was hardly bright, but it seems from what I read that other models are much brighter.

 

[Rhamnetin]

Fair enough

I just wonder why different builds of KGSSHVs sound so different. The headinclouds build I had was hardly bright, but it seems from what I read that other models are much brighter.

 
There are so many variations of KGSSHVs (not even counting the Carbons) with different parts.  People like to fine tune theirs a certain way.

 

[DougD]

   
There are so many variations of KGSSHVs (not even counting the Carbons) with different parts.  People like to fine tune theirs a certain way.

 
Do we think (or know) if in general people build them with different parts with the deliberate intent of shaping the sound, or do they more often make some part choices and discover after-the-fact that the net result is a somewhat different sound ? (compared to some hypothetical reference KGSSHV build)

 

[Rhamnetin]

   
Do we think (or know) if in general people build them with different parts with the deliberate intent of shaping the sound, or do they more often make some part choices and discover after-the-fact that the net result is a somewhat different sound ? (compared to some hypothetical reference KGSSHV build)

 
I'd say experienced builders like headinclouds and Birgir and others are usually deliberately shaping the sound. 

 

[mulveling]

Fair enough

I just wonder why different builds of KGSSHVs sound so different. The headinclouds build I had was hardly bright, but it seems from what I read that other models are much brighter.

Definitely true that there's a lot of variables in the KGSShv builds, and therefore sound. It evolved/changed over a few years too:
 

1. Power Supply: Full or minified
2. Transistors: IXYS, Sanyo
3. Voltage Rails: 400V/450V/500V
4. Bias current (5mA to 14mA+)
5. On-board vs. off-board heatsink version
6. DC Servo vs. no servo
7. Passive Parts (e.g. attenuator: Alpha pot vs. DACT/Goldpoint vs. RK50)

 
So, lots of variables over lots of builders. Hearing various head-to-head match-ups between 5 different KGSShv builds, over time, is pretty striking. They do sound different.
 
Amp selection here is a much bigger determinant of overall tonal balance than the DAC. Headphone selection being first of course. So try to hear a 007 and/or 009 before you buy. Or take a shot at one with the idea that you can resell if it doesn't work out (let's be honest -- if you made it here, you're dedicated enough to do this much at least). To be honest, I love the 009 so much that I still like it a lot even out of a too-bright amp/DAC -- it's just that the 009 is much better with an ideal match. Haven't heard a modern 007, but from what I've read I'd almost certainly prefer it over my Mk I. I prefer my L700 over the 007 Mk I, even though the latter is better at detail and soundstage (I don't give my 007 much love anymore) -- the L700 is pretty much dead neutral to my ears; great balance and musical.
 
I've heard three 009's (spanning at least a few years of makes) and two 007 Mk I's at the same time (between Purk and myself); unit/vintage variability is very small -- the oldest 009 happens to be the warmest, actually. The channel balance is always perfect. My impression is that Stax is extremely consistent -- especially versus other non-Sennheiser manufacturers.
 
Here's a rundown of my thoughts on various amps:

1. KGSShv Carbon (17mA bias, Goldpoint): Very close to neutral; slightly laid-back in the upper mids and treble, which pairs well with the 009 and Yggdrasil. Absolutely huge soundstage; amazing imaging. 
2. KGSShv onboard IXYS 500V full size (5mA, Goldpoint, old version KGSShv): Close to neutral but ever so slightly forward in the upper mids/lower treble -- and this adds to the same slight accentuations from the 009/Yggy, but the combo still sounds so, so good (though it will be too hot for some). Surprisingly beautiful mids and dynamics; best of the non-Carbon KGSShv. Maybe even a tad sweeter mids versus the Carbon..maybe. Very good amp for the 007 Mk I as it adds some needed zip there. Bigger soundstage and dynamics, and more detail than any other non-Carbon KGSShv (Carbon wins on these points).
3. KGSShv off-board 450V Sanyo full-size (11mA bias, Alpha pot): Surprisingly warm and lush. Not as detailed as the IXYS KGSShv or Carbon, but maybe some of that is the Alpha pot vs. Goldpoints. Still very detailed and dynamic, with great bass impact and soundstage (kills the KGST in these areas). This will be the perfect 009 pairing for those who find the latter slightly too bright/strident; it reins in the top-end more than any of these other amps (stereotype of tube amps being the warmest does not hold here). Not an ideal match for the 007 Mk I; things get a bit wooly there.
4. KGSShv mini (400V, Alpha pot, smallest chassis): Less dynamic sounding than the full-size units, and with slightly more mechanical mids. Can also be bright (similar in overall tonal balance to a BHSE, but slightly more fatiguing), but those units will pair nicely with a 007 Mk I. Still very good amps, but opt for the full-size units unless you get a great deal or live in a phone booth.
5. KGSShv mini prototype (400V, 11-14mA?, Alpha pot, larger chassis): Less bright than the smaller/newer mini, but also less detailed. Similar issues with midrange and dynamics (maybe even more so on the latter point). Still a good sounding amp, and provided a lot of enjoyment as my first Stax system w/ 009.
6. KGST (350V, RCA tubes, Alpha pot): A lot less soundstage than the KGSShv and better amps -- less bass impact and detail too. But this amp has very liquid/organic tube mids that the SS amps can't replicate. I like this amp a lot with the L700 for some reason (itself a soundstage restricted headphone with gorgeous mids). It's also a very good pairing with the 009.
7. BHSE (Amperex/Holland EL34 XF4/XF5, RK50 pot); pulling from long memory on this one): More detailed than even the Carbon, but a bit brighter too. Gorgeous tube mids. Insanely good for the 007 Mk I -- this is the asterick on my dislike for that headphone; I REALLY like them when paired with a BHSE. But I still like the 009 better, hah (even if a bit bright in this pairing). I would rate this amp as slightly better overall than my Carbon (but again, from memory).
8. DIY T2 (vintage British/Mullard EL34, long memory here too): Perfect. Better than the best aspects of all the above amps combined, and then some.
9. Un-modded Stax 727: No comparison to any of the above amps. After listening to the better amps, all the magic of Stax headphone seems to disappear as soon as this amp is hooked up. Very muddled and confused sound. This may still have been a good experience w/009 had I listened to it before exposure to the above amps, but now I'll never know

 
These days I still get excited to listen to the Carbon or IXYS KGSShv -- and obviously the BHSE, DIY T2 if I had daily access to those -- and sometimes even the little KGST for its mids. Those amps still project a thrilling level of high-fidelity and musicality.

 

[lojay]

  Definitely true that there's a lot of variables in the KGSShv builds, and therefore sound. It evolved/changed over a few years too:
 
...So, lots of variables over lots of builders. Hearing various head-to-head match-ups between 5 different KGSShv builds, over time, is pretty striking. They do sound different.
 
Amp selection here is a much bigger determinant of overall tonal balance than the DAC. Headphone selection being first of course. So try to hear a 007 and/or 009 before you buy. Or take a shot at one with the idea that you can resell if it doesn't work out (let's be honest -- if you made it here, you're dedicated enough to do this much at least). To be honest, I love the 009 so much that I still like it a lot even out of a too-bright amp/DAC -- it's just that the 009 is much better with an ideal match. Haven't heard a modern 007, but from what I've read I'd almost certainly prefer it over my Mk I. I prefer my L700 over the 007 Mk I, even though the latter is better at detail and soundstage (I don't give my 007 much love anymore) -- the L700 is pretty much dead neutral to my ears; great balance and musical.
 
I've heard three 009's (spanning at least a few years of makes) and two 007 Mk I's at the same time (between Purk and myself); unit/vintage variability is very small -- the oldest 009 happens to be the warmest, actually. The channel balance is always perfect. My impression is that Stax is extremely consistent -- especially versus other non-Sennheiser manufacturers.
 
Here's a rundown of my thoughts on various amps:

1. KGSShv Carbon (17mA bias, Goldpoint): Very close to neutral; slightly laid-back in the upper mids and treble, which pairs well with the 009 and Yggdrasil. Absolutely huge soundstage; amazing imaging. 
2. KGSShv onboard IXYS 500V full size (5mA, Goldpoint, old version KGSShv): Close to neutral but ever so slightly forward in the upper mids/lower treble -- and this adds to the same slight accentuations from the 009/Yggy, but the combo still sounds so, so good (though it will be too hot for some). Surprisingly beautiful mids and dynamics; best of the non-Carbon KGSShv. Maybe even a tad sweeter mids versus the Carbon..maybe. Very good amp for the 007 Mk I as it adds some needed zip there. Bigger soundstage and dynamics, and more detail than any other non-Carbon KGSShv (Carbon wins on these points).
3. KGSShv off-board 450V Sanyo full-size (11mA bias, Alpha pot): Surprisingly warm and lush. Not as detailed as the IXYS KGSShv or Carbon, but maybe some of that is the Alpha pot vs. Goldpoints. Still very detailed and dynamic, with great bass impact and soundstage (kills the KGST in these areas). This will be the perfect 009 pairing for those who find the latter slightly too bright/strident; it reins in the top-end more than any of these other amps (stereotype of tube amps being the warmest does not hold here). Not an ideal match for the 007 Mk I; things get a bit wooly there.
4. KGSShv mini (400V, Alpha pot): Less dynamic sounding than the full-size units, and with slightly more mechanical mids. Can also be bright (similar in overall tonal balance to a BHSE, but slightly more fatiguing), but those units will pair nicely with a 007 Mk I. Still very good amps, but opt for the full-size units unless you get a great deal or live in a phone booth.
5. KGST (350V, RCA tubes, Alpha pot): A lot less soundstage than the KGSShv and better amps -- less bass impact and detail too. But this amp has very liquid/organic tube mids that the SS amps can't replicate. I like this amp a lot with the L700 for some reason (itself a soundstage restricted headphone with gorgeous mids). It's also a very good pairing with the 009.
6. BHSE (Amperex/Holland EL34 XF4/XF5, RK50 pot); pulling from long memory on this one): More detailed than even the Carbon, but a bit brighter too. Gorgeous tube mids. Insanely good for the 007 Mk I -- this is the asterick on my dislike for that headphone; I REALLY like them when paired with a BHSE. But I still like the 009 better, hah (even if a bit bright in this pairing). I would rate this amp as slightly better overall than my Carbon (but again, from memory).
7. DIY T2 (vintage British/Mullard EL34, long memory here too): Perfect. Better than the best aspects of all the above amps combined, and then some.
8. Un-modded Stax 727: No comparison to any of the above amps. After listening to the better amps, all the magic of Stax headphone seems to disappear as soon as this amp is hooked up. Very muddled and confused sound. This may still have been a good experience w/009 had I listened to it before exposure to the above amps, but now I'll never know

 
These days I still get excited to listen to the Carbon or IXYS KGSShv -- and obviously the BHSE, DIY T2 if I had daily access to those -- and sometimes even the little KGST for its mids. Those amps still project a thrilling level of high-fidelity and musicality.

 
It can't get more informative than this. I have had the KGSSHV off-board 450V Sanyo built by Headinclouds. I can confirm that it is warm and lush, with little stridence or brightness when paired with the SR009. In fact I confirm it is slightly less bright than the DIYT2 (with metal base EL34 from Holland), but it does sound a bit woolly with the SR009 when compared to the T2 - there was a loss of resolution across the board and it lacked the airiness and openness that the SR009 is renowned for. In fact I sold it because I thought the HD800 setup I had resolved so much better in comparison.
 
Compared to my old KGSSHV the T2 has a much wider soundstage, holographic imaging, better extension in highs and bass, perfectly tuned and intimate sounding midrange, the best micro-detail and possibly macro-detail (save as against the HD800 on a top end amp) I have heard on any amp, tighter and better defined bass... I could go on. Most importantly, it does the trick of completely getting out of the way when paired with an excellent live recording. 
 
The only downside to the T2 is that poorly mastered recordings will sound "wrong", though I do not think the SR009 when paired with the T2 is anywhere near how picky the HD800 is with recordings. Bad recordings sound wrong but are still enjoyable on the T2, as the treble is oh-so smooth and delicate, but you know the recording sounds "off" once you play a good recording that sounds right. Another point to note that it does have less bass bloat and quantity compared to the KGSSHV but that's what you expect from tubes. Still the bass goes deeper, is more tuneful and has more precise impact. 

 

[Tebe]

Thanks for amp comparison what do you guys think about nekoaudio dac for 009/bhse?

 

[Pokemonn]

Thank you mulvering! very very informative and helpful for us!
I found that I need to start building DIY T2 with best parts + Alps RK50.
since my home is not far from electric parts town Akihabara.