Do amps really have different signatures?

bigshot said:

No it isn't. Go test it with a sound program yourself. The decimal point is in the wrong place.
The decibel scale was designed so a decibel was the smallest perceptable difference. You can hear a decibel, but only in a direct A/B comparison using test tones. On a good day with sharp ears, you might be able to hear a little less than that. But not that much less.
Amps with specs within the range of 20-20 +/-.5dB are audibly identical for the purposes of playing music.

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And yet, a +0.1dB increase can make you choose a state of the art DAC against another state of the art DAC because it sounds better.

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qusp said:

 
i'm not a tube guy in general either, but i've been forced to reconsider my opinion of tube amps after being exposed to a pair of O2 MkII and a diy BHSE and DIY T2, the BHSE is a hybrid, the T2 is all tubes. The T2 was the better, more transparent amp, quite an incredible amp actually. as devices properly implemented they are actually pretty darn linear, perhaps even more linear than simple discrete solid state amps. to call them coloured in general isnt really very accurate and is usually a claim made by people who dont know the first thing about tube amps

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Bingo.  
 
Add on the narrow view of some arbitrary definition of electrical transparency and myopia strikes again.  Take two objective amps that meet the sufficient conditions of 'audible transparency', the O2 and B22 and if one cannot tell the difference between them then something is wrong in the chain.  Most likely the problem lies with the meat puppet at the end of the transducer.  Neither of these SS solutions can touch a DIY T2 w/ a ten foot pole wrt transparency.
 
Lots of lack of knowledge or experience QFT.

the Stax T2 is most definitely a Hybrid - just uses input diff pair tubes, one output tube/stator drive cascode MOSFET buffered, MOSFET diff pair gain stage, SS parts used in level shifting, buffers, output ccs - ~ 2x more SS parts than a complete KGSS amp

Don't know whether trolling(comparing stats amps against B22/O2) or for real. For those with stats though. A really fair comparison between "the best" would be a T2/BHSE vs a KGSSHV. That being said, among low voltage applications, rarely have I preferred a tube(among the mid- entry level high tier) over a SS of similar pricing. 

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firev1 said:

A really fair comparison between "the best" would be a T2/BHSE vs a KGSSHV

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That works too, KGSSHV can't keep up.  If you read closer you can see I was comparing the B22 to the O2, which 'should sound the same'.      
 
Yes the T2 is a hybrid, it's probably got more transistors than my first PC.  

You take a solid state amp with sufficient power to do the job. And another solid state amp with sufficient power to do the job. You patch the same music signal into both of them. Then you balance the line level of the outputs and switch between them. You don't need to be an electrical engineer to hear that they sound the same. If it doesn't one of them is out of spec. There's no reason with current technology to not expect a flat response.

Sometimes people make things way too complicated and lose sight of the goal... the sound that comes out at the other end.

Or sometimes people ignore the specifics and lose sight of the question entirely or intentionally.

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anaxilus said:

 
Bingo.  
 
Add on the narrow view of some arbitrary definition of electrical transparency and myopia strikes again.  Take two objective amps that meet the sufficient conditions of 'audible transparency', the O2 and B22 and if one cannot tell the difference between them then something is wrong in the chain.  Most likely the problem lies with the meat puppet at the end of the transducer.  Neither of these SS solutions can touch a DIY T2 w/ a ten foot pole wrt transparency.
 
Lots of lack of knowledge or experience QFT.

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QFT? All I see are a couple of claims but no evidence.

bigshot said:

with low end and consumer grade amps, the primary differences are features and power. They're all clean as a whistle.

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bigshot said:

All the people with high end amps claiming that theirs sounds better are wrong... Theirs just sounds different.

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bigshot said:

But the truth is, that all properly designed solid state amps are calibrated to sound exactly the same... Sony, Marantz, Yamaha, McIntosh... It doesn't matter.

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bigshot said:

Go to your local supermarket and look at all the different brands of canned green beans. They're all the same. 

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bigshot said:

Your iPhone and your CD player sound the same.

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xnor said:

QFT? All I see are a couple of claims but no evidence.

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Exactly

It may be fun as a parlor game to build molehills into mountains, but the point where the music hits your ears is when the rubber hits the road.

Testing Audiophile Claims and Myths
http://www.head-fi.org/t/486598/testing-audiophile-claims-and-myths

In particular, see The Stereo Review Amplifier Challenge
http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/receivers/amplifier-sound-quality.aspx

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Originally Posted by Anaxilus /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
[quotes from bishot]
 
Exactly

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You don't seem to know what a null hypothesis is..

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xnor said:

You don't seem to know what a null hypothesis is..

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Oh I do according to the grade I received in college statistics.  Many here like yourself don't seem to know what flawed methodology and false logical claims are because that wouldn't serve to reinforce their preconceptions and belief set.  But I see you have no problem accepting a subjective evaluation from somebody that demand DBTs simply because it would agree w/ their null hypothesis.
____________
 
Repeatedly analyzing the same flawed studies for those who choose not to pay attention is no fun parlor game either.  This thread is now full circle like most ever other one in this forum.
 
Hell, everything must taste the same too.
 
http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2012/02/10/146645622/why-we-like-what-we-like?sc=fb&cc=fp

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anaxilus said:

Oh I do according to the grade I received in college statistics.

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Then why quote bigshot a couple of times and then me with my "no evidence" and then you post "Exactly"? If it's because you think the default position is a different one please tell us. I'm very curious.
 
 
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Many here like yourself don't seem to know what flawed methodology and false logical claims are because that wouldn't serve to reinforce their preconceptions and belief set. 

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Oh, trying to turn the tables. Not so fast.
You complain about false logical claims (btw, which ones? I don't have made any claims in this thread) yet you post to this article: http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2012/02/10/146645622/why-we-like-what-we-like?sc=fb&cc=fp
I'm wondering what you're trying to imply with this article, cause all I can think of is flawed logic.
 
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But I see you have no problem accepting a subjective evaluation from somebody that demand DBTs simply because it would agree w/ their null hypothesis.
____________
 
Repeatedly analyzing the same flawed studies for those who choose not to pay attention is no fun parlor game either.  This thread is now full circle like most ever other one in this forum.

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No I'm asking for evidence because I'm getting tired of those claims, like the ones you made, that get repeated over and over again without a shred of evidence.

You know, I think people should be responsible for the things they say, not the things others say.
 
And come on, we all know that casual listening tests don't amount to much because of the confounding variables (though the more things controlled, the better), regardless of whether or not it supports one view or the other.  That said, most (but not all) of the confounding variables would be expected to bias the results in favor of false positives.  Where we're still at is having no good evidence to disprove the null hypothesis.  You can't prove the null hypothesis, so exactly how much evidence for that side are you expecting, and what kind?
 
 
 

qusp said:

did I say it couldnt be measured? i'm simply saying that most (not all) of these type of comparisons or claims that things should sound the same, completely disregard the interaction with the particular reactive and dynamic loading of the whole system. testing the amp, mostly at best with a static resistive load is inadequate. its not changing the signal, the signal is the same, the ability to drive that signal into the load is changed, that is where the difference between amps is.

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Is there any theory or test results that suggest that low output-Z amps that do well with static resistive loads, can do (significantly) less well with a more complex load like a headphone?  Or more complicated test signals, for that matter?  I mean this as a serious question, because I haven't seen many results for complex loads myself.  I've done very quick, crude ones myself, and if you want to go down the route of reading manufacturer white papers (for what that's worth), there's a little here.

mikeaj said:

You know, I think people should be responsible for the things they say, not the things others say.

And come on, we all know that casual listening tests don't amount to much because of the confounding variables (though the more things controlled, the better), regardless of whether or not it supports one view or the other.  That said, most (but not all) of the confounding variables would be expected to bias the results in favor of false positives.  Where we're still at is having no good evidence to disprove the null hypothesis.  You can't prove the null hypothesis, so exactly how much evidence for that side are you expecting, and what kind?




Is there any theory or test results that suggest that low output-Z amps that do well with static resistive loads, can do (significantly) less well with a more complex load like a headphone?  Or more complicated test signals, for that matter?  I mean this as a serious question, because I haven't seen many results for complex loads myself.  I've done very quick, crude ones myself, and if you want to go down the route of reading manufacturer white papers (for what that's worth), there's a little here.

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I am in this camp.