panzeriv said:

Ah I so hate when a company release a new better product within 1 year of owning their latest product so now I'm already gonna have an outdated product (-_-). I never liked the bass boost or crossfeed feature on the E12, I find them totaly useless when being used on my (Beyerdynamic T90) headphone and even on the neutral (DT880) which I also have so having a better opamp with more clarity and soundstage and less hiss can only be better for my 250Ohm headphone!


Is there any official release date and price? Also where do you guys buy Fiio products as they are extremly rare and hard to find in Canada :/


I am also about to buy a (Fiio X3) player as it appears to be using a very good DAC etc on it but I'm wondering if then after hooking it to my E12 if I'll be bypassing all the good stuff from the X3 to only be using the opamps found in the E12 or am I still gonna get and notice the improvement from the X3 player??? I currently have a (Cowon S9 32Gb) player and I really like also the idea of being able to use a 64-128Gb MicroSD card.

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Headphone bar has a great selection of FiiO products with great prices. I buy all my FiiO headfi gear there. Good service too.

When using the X3 line out you lose the bass/treble tone controls, but the line out is pretty good. The DAC is very nice in the X3 and the e12 is very good if you have hard to drive headphones. However, the X3 should drive your 250Ohm headphones without a problem. I think you'll prefer it over the Cowan.

I don't think your missing out on much as the new e12 is designed for IEMs.

All my FiiO gear came from HeadphoneBar or B&H, both are excellent.

The E12 adds the needed headroom for driving my DT880's without having to switch the X3 into high gain mode. I like the analog volume control as well. I don't EQ the DT880's as their neutral sound is perfect for me with the Line Out of the X3.

x relic x said:

Headphone bar has a great selection of FiiO products with great prices. I buy all my FiiO headfi gear there. Good service too.

When using the X3 line out you lose the bass/treble tone controls, but the line out is pretty good. The DAC is very nice in the X3 and the e12 is very good if you have hard to drive headphones. However, the X3 should drive your 250Ohm headphones without a problem. I think you'll prefer it over the Cowan.

I don't think your missing out on much as the new e12 is designed for IEMs.

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1- Thanks a lot for showing me HeadphoneBar, this store looks really nice and they're the one with the most products from Fiio in the whole Canada. Prices looks good too as sometime when a company pretty much have a "monopoly" in the country, they tend to boost the prices. I will definitely be ordering there as shipping is also very cheap and I'm gonna pay only 5% tax instead of Quebec's 15% or risk getting custom fees from Internationnal stores.

2- When using the Line-Out you lose the Bass/Treble tone controls, yet you don't lose your customized EQ? If so, is it because the tone controls are hardware based and the EQ is done through the DAC?

3- I'm sure the X3 would be able to drive decently enough my headphone as they are fairly sensitive even though they are rated 250Ohm, however isn't the purpose of an amp is not just about giving you a higher volume but also more clarity in the high and better low-ends too because it has a higher voltage swing? Mind you the X3 is only rated (>200mW@32Ω) while the E12 is (>880mW@32Ω) so almost 5 time more powerful!
 
4- I just read from the Fiio's press that the new E12a might be 0.003% THD instead of 0.005% and also 115dB SNR instead of 110dB but the amp part will be twice less powerful at (>410mW@32Ω) so yea I guess even though it's gonna have Muse02 opamps, it will only be meant for IEM, not big cans.
 

trolldragon said:

The E12 adds the needed headroom for driving my DT880's without having to switch the X3 into high gain mode. I like the analog volume control as well. I don't EQ the DT880's as their neutral sound is perfect for me with the Line Out of the X3.

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1- So there is also a "High Gain" mode on the X3 as well as on the E12? With such headphones I guess the best thing to do is the avoid the high gain on the DAP then only set the amp "E12" on high gain so avoid making a "double high gain"? In fact what produce a better sound and less hiss between... high volume + low gain vs low volume + high gain? O_o I'm a little confused over here.

2- Just to make sure I understand some facts correctly before making my purchase online tonight, since I will obviously be using the Line-Out from the DAP as I have the E12, does it mean I will be bypassing every Opamps from the player and only be using its DAC as well as the Opamp from the E12? The main reason I'm wondering is that if it's true then it means I wouldn't be noticing much difference between the X1 or X3 versus the extremly expensive X5 as the only difference would be the DAC as I'll be bypassing the higher-end opamps anyway???


Thank you a lot guys if you can clear these questions up for me!

I'll also add Headfoneshop in Toronto.

panzeriv said:

1- Thanks a lot for showing me HeadphoneBar, this store looks really nice and they're the one with the most products from Fiio in the whole Canada. Prices looks good too as sometime when a company pretty much have a "monopoly" in the country, they tend to boost the prices. I will definitely be ordering there as shipping is also very cheap and I'm gonna pay only 5% tax instead of Quebec's 15% or risk getting custom fees from Internationnal stores.

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You're welcome.

panzeriv said:

2- When using the Line-Out you lose the Bass/Treble tone controls, yet you don't lose your customized EQ? If so, is it because the tone controls are hardware based and the EQ is done through the DAC?

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Custom EQ isn't available in the official FW on the X3, just tone control. It was proven unstable in Beta FW so they ditched it. On the X5 it's implemented on the SOC so you can have custom EQ on all outputs and files that are 24bit/48kHz and lower.

panzeriv said:

3- I'm sure the X3 would be able to drive decently enough my headphone as they are fairly sensitive even though they are rated 250Ohm, however isn't the purpose of an amp is not just about giving you a higher volume but also more clarity in the high and better low-ends too because it has a higher voltage swing? Mind you the X3 is only rated (>200mW@32Ω) while the E12 is (>880mW@32Ω) so almost 5 time more powerful!

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Yes, more voltage swing can be good for dynamics when listening to music and typically why you want some headroom with your amp. You had mentioned hiss and concern over the e12 so in case you don't like it you can use the X3 in high gain on its own. I'd recommend using the combo.

panzeriv said:

4- I just read from the Fiio's press that the new E12a might be 0.003% THD instead of 0.005% and also 115dB SNR instead of 110dB but the amp part will be twice less powerful at (>410mW@32Ω) so yea I guess even though it's gonna have Muse02 opamps, it will only be meant for IEM, not big cans.

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Right.

panzeriv said:

1- So there is also a "High Gain" mode on the X3 as well as on the E12? With such headphones I guess the best thing to do is the avoid the high gain on the DAP then only set the amp "E12" on high gain so avoid making a "double high gain"? In fact what produce a better sound and less hiss between... high volume + low gain vs low volume + high gain? O_o I'm a little confused over here.

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The line out bypasses all amp and tone control on the X3 so you will not be using high gain or high volume on the X3 when using line out. The only amp/volume control you will have is with the e12 in this configuration.

panzeriv said:

2- Just to make sure I understand some facts correctly before making my purchase online tonight, since I will obviously be using the Line-Out from the DAP as I have the E12, does it mean I will be bypassing every Opamps from the player and only be using its DAC as well as the Opamp from the E12? The main reason I'm wondering is that if it's true then it means I wouldn't be noticing much difference between the X1 or X3 versus the extremly expensive X5 as the only difference would be the DAC as I'll be bypassing the higher-end opamps anyway???

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Yes this is how it works. The biggest difference is in the DAC implementation which gives the DAP its sonic flavour where the amp should be as transparent as possible. Amps may add colour to the sound but most of the warmth and detail difference between the X3 and X5 comes from the DAC (having owned both using the line out to e12). I haven't heard the X1 but it would be the DAC that would be the difference using line out. I find FiiO's DAC implementations to be pretty good.

Edit: The iPad made this post a multi-edit ordeal. Also, sorry for answering for TrollDragon but I was on a roll.

x relic x said:

Amps may add colour to the sound but most of the warmth and detail difference between the X3 and X5 comes from the DAC (having owned both using the line out to e12). I haven't heard the X1 but it would be the DAC that would be the difference using line out. I find FiiO's DAC implementations to be pretty good.

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Hehe no problem for the multi-quote and answering at his place. Your reply couldn't be any better and is exactly how I love them even though I've noticed most people and girls mostly, tend to be annoyed "more lazy?" when they have to read more than 2-3 lines because you've answered at everything at once rather than only 1 thing. The more details the better in my opinion ^^

1- It sucks that even 1.5 years later Fiio didn't find a way to include (Custom EQ) on their latest X3 firmware. It's usualy the most important "software feature" though now it matters much less since my Beyer T90 isn't as neutral/flat as the DT880 so I no more need a slight EQ or Bass boost. Just making sure... the custom eq which have been ditched, is it only for Line-Out or also for everything??? There is still the "bass boost" on the E12 but I dislike it as you cannot control the intensity as it seems to be a fixed +4dB on a too broad range of frequency rather than a specific one so it adds too much bass and coloration to the music. It's still very strange if they are able through line-out to offer an EQ but no custom EQ O_o

2- A) Since you've owned both the X3 + X5 while also using the line out to the E12, nobody else than you would be better suited to answer the following question Why did you buy the X5, did you have the X3 first then you decided to upgrade to the X5? The price difference between the X3 & X5 is pretty much double so +100% but how about the sound quality in your opinion, is it like +20% better, even more or less?
B) Is the soundstage wider on the X5 and if so, how easy can you notice it?

3- It's a shame the X3 doesn't have a scroll wheel for better UI navigation like their counter-parts as I feel like the X1 is less expensive, smaller/lighter, better navigation "buttons", have an interface at least as good as the X3 or even better, a worse amp which I don't care as I'll be using the E12 anyway... so pretty much the only downside could have been the much smaller battery of 1700mAh instead of 3000mAh, yet what I don't understand is that it is still ~12H so What?! If by some miracle that is true, it means the ONLY thing that could possibly be worse than the X3 is no USB-DAC function and I'd guess by logic since it's less expensive... a DAC chip not as detailed "good" as the X3. Am I right or am I missing something else?

panzeriv said:

Hehe no problem for the multi-quote and answering at his place. Your reply couldn't be any better and is exactly how I love them even though I've noticed most people and girls mostly, tend to be annoyed "more lazy?" when they have to read more than 2-3 lines because you've answered at everything at once rather than only 1 thing. The more details the better in my opinion ^^

1- It sucks that even 1.5 years later Fiio didn't find a way to include (Custom EQ) on their latest X3 firmware. It's usualy the most important "software feature" though now it matters much less since my Beyer T90 isn't as neutral/flat as the DT880 so I no more need a slight EQ or Bass boost. Just making sure... the custom eq which have been ditched, is it only for Line-Out or also for everything??? There is still the "bass boost" on the E12 but I dislike it as you cannot control the intensity as it seems to be a fixed +4dB on a too broad range of frequency rather than a specific one so it adds too much bass and coloration to the music. It's still very strange if they are able through line-out to offer an EQ but no custom EQ O_o

2- A) Since you've owned both the X3 + X5 while also using the line out to the E12, nobody else than you would be better suited to answer the following question Why did you buy the X5, did you have the X3 first then you decided to upgrade to the X5? The price difference between the X3 & X5 is pretty much double so +100% but how about the sound quality in your opinion, is it like +20% better, even more or less?
B) Is the soundstage wider on the X5 and if so, how easy can you notice it?

3- It's a shame the X3 doesn't have a scroll wheel for better UI navigation like their counter-parts as I feel like the X1 is less expensive, smaller/lighter, better navigation "buttons", have an interface at least as good as the X3 or even better, a worse amp which I don't care as I'll be using the E12 anyway... so pretty much the only downside could have been the much smaller battery of 1700mAh instead of 3000mAh, yet what I don't understand is that it is still ~12H so What?! If by some miracle that is true, it means the ONLY thing that could possibly be worse than the X3 is no USB-DAC function and I'd guess by logic since it's less expensive... a DAC chip not as detailed "good" as the X3. Am I right or am I missing something else?

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Careful, girls aren't lazy! That's a pretty blanket statement that can get a person in trouble (speaking from experience).

Most of the issues I had with the X3 were hardware limitations. The processing hardware is the limit for not implementing an EQ and it isn't available at all. The tone controls are way better than the EQ in the X5 as far as SQ is concerned IMO, and they can go a long way to enhance/tweak the sound. The hardware buttons were the reason I didn't like the UI (I prefer a scroll wheel, others prefer the buttons). The single mSD card wasn't for me. A lot of people don't want to use a portable amp so that's why the amp is so powerful in the X3. However it's all about trade offs. I don't think there was a better performing DAP SQ and power output wise than the X3 when it was released at its price point, which was FiiO's goal with the X3 and they succeeded in that point. The market has changed rapidly though.

You have to understand that the X3 is FiiO's first DAP and is essentially modelled after the internals of the e17 amp/DAC so they were learning the ropes with it. The X3 button configuration I feel is an example of being new to the market when it first came out, therefore not the best design out there.

When the X5 was released it didn't take long for me to prefer its detail and soundstage. I'd say, for me, it does indeed sound 20% better at least, maybe more. I like the X5 SQ for its clarity and natural presentation. I liked the X3 for its musicality and hardware tone controls. For me it came down to interface, memory expansion, detailed sound, and soundstage. Easily worth the extra money to me. With FiiO it seems you do get what you pay for. The X1 is less money and you get less features, but they are learning and continuing to improve their line.

I remember a while back FiiO mentioned an updated X3 would be released, which would more than likely include the improvements seen in the X5 and X1, but who knows when that will be released.

As far as SQ differences I'd personally look at the DAC as the biggest factor in sound signature as the amp section should be as transparent as possible (or easy to change with line out). The X5 PCM1792 is natural, clear and detailed with great instrument seperation. The X3 Wolfson WM8740 is warm and musical with good instrument seperation.

So for me.......

X3 for musicality and power with excellent hardware tone controls.

X5 for detailed natural clarity and interface and more memory expansion (notice that I don't emphasize the EQ).

X1 for price, size and convenience (I haven't heard it). Smaller form factor with a weaker amp and no USB DAC function. Hence the smaller battery with the same run time.

Edit: Appologies to all for rambling. I must have said the same thing at least 4 times over.

x relic x said:

As far as SQ differences I'd personally look at the DAC as the biggest factor in sound signature as the amp section should be as transparent as possible (or easy to change with line out). The X5 PCM1792 is natural, clear and detailed with great instrument seperation. The X3 Wolfson WM8740 is warm and musical with good instrument seperation.

X3 for musicality and power with excellent hardware tone controls.

X5 for detailed natural clarity and interface and more memory expansion (notice that I don't emphasize the EQ).

X1 for price, size and convenience (I haven't heard it). Smaller form factor with a weaker amp and no USB DAC function. Hence the smaller battery with the same run time.

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Oh well even though it might be +20-25% better sound-wise than the X3, I can't say right now that it is worth paying 350$USD instead of 155$USD Shipped so I guess I'll just wait for the X7 to be out in 2015 then the X5 should drop in price and be more available in used condition as right now it is too recent to find any "used like new" for cheaper so you must pay the full retail price and I think for somebody who wouldn't already have an E12 or good headphone, he'd be better off spending that extra 200$ on a better headphone and/or an amp too.

1- It is still weird that the smaller battery from the X1 last as long as the one from the X3. I mean, yes it doesn't have an USB-DAC function but if you ain't using it and that your screen is shut down, why simply listening to music while doing nothing else would use more battery?! That also makes me wonder, if I use the line-out to the E12, the internal battery of the DAP should last much longer right?

2- You said you don't emphasize on the EQ from the X5. What you meant exactly by that and why talk so much about the hardware tone controls of the X3? Is it because they stripped away the hardware tone control on the X5 and used only a 10-Band software EQ instead, which you find useless?

Alright, so I prolly spent overall 6 houres reading many things online to make sure I get the right model for me and it appears it is gonna be the X3 for now You've helped me a lot with my decision, thanks a million time.

1 - Yes, when not using the built in amp the battery lasts much longer. As a matter of fact I clocked around 28 hours using my X5 coaxial out (bypassing the amp and DAC) to the HA-1 DAC/amp and still had a couple bars left. FiiO is going to list typical usage with the player alone, not with different amps etc.

As for the X1 battery life you should realize that the amp really is a huge draw on battery life so it's not unreasonable to get around the same play time from a less powerful amp. Also, different DACs draw different power as well. It's a system that has to work with the design goal in mind, not just components.

2 - Yes, they stripped the tone controls away from the X5 and replaced them with the SOC EQ (Silicon On Chip). The EQ on the X5 is good enough for me to cut frequencies I find to be unbalanced with certain headphones (Vmoda m-100 bass for example) but it still is a digital implementation that I find inferior to the X3 tone controls. You can't beat an analogue hardware implementation. It's simply cleaner and more natural to me. The trade off is you can't use them on anything but headphone out.

You should be happy with the X3. Enjoy!

Recently bought an Ipod touch, 5th generation, which might be a mistake because of the sound quality = not very good. However, I've seen much reviews in favor of this Mont Blanc amp so I figure on a purchase. In reviews I have seen people are using a line out cable such as Fiio L9 instead of using the audio cable in the package, so I would like to do that also, but apparantly I can't because I can't find any Fiio-cable that fits the 5th generation Ipod touch. They are made for 1th, 2th, 3th, 4th generation but not for the 5th. So my question is this, how much difference will it make for the sound quality if I use the audio cable instead of a line out cable?  

rimbaud65 said:

  Recently bought an Ipod touch, 5th generation, which might be a mistake because of the sound quality = not very good. However, I've seen much reviews in favor of this Mont Blanc amp so I figure on a purchase. In reviews I have seen people are using a line out cable such as Fiio L9 instead of using the audio cable in the package, so I would like to do that also, but apparantly I can't because I can't find any Fiio-cable that fits the 5th generation Ipod touch. They are made for 1th, 2th, 3th, 4th generation but not for the 5th. So my question is this, how much difference will it make for the sound quality if I use the audio cable instead of a line out cable?  

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That is a really good question. First, I didn't know Apple made their bottom connector different on the 5th generation and I'm not even sure if they kept it the same "prolly" for the new 6th. Since it's been out for quite a while it's surprising Fiio didn't update their iPod Line-Out cable O_o

You should have said with which headphone you want to use the iPod 5th + E12 as you might be better off going with the E17/18 instead that is a DAC/AMP combo. Sure the amp isn't as powerful in those but you'd get a better DAC than the one from your iPod. I took the E12 as I needed more power for my 250Ohm headphone and the DAC inside the (Cowon S9) I have is already better than those from Apple and I'll change it anyway soon for the Fiio X3 player that blow away anything from Apple.

I remember though when I use long ago to use the Line-Out from the iPod Classic 80Gb to an home-made amp and it is of course always better but it is far from night & day difference. You know sometime it seems much bigger on paper than in pratice so try to do it if possible but if it's too much hassle to find or too pricey then forget about it and try instead selling ur iPod to get a Fiio X1-3.

The 5G is only digital with no analog output, you would need a Lightning to 30 pin adapter and then a regular LOD like the FiiO L9 to the E12.
http://store.apple.com/ca/product/MD823ZM/A/lightning-to-30-pin-adapter
 
Unless they make a Lightning/Line Out cable these days.

panzeriv said:

  You should have said with which headphone you want to use the iPod 5th + E12 as you might be better off going with the E17/18 instead that is a DAC/AMP combo.

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Sennheiser Momentum.

rimbaud65 said:

  Sennheiser Momentum.

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What?! So you have 18Ohm headphone, the lowest I've ever seen on full-sized cans and you're thinking about getting an external amp for this!? It makes absolutely no sense as usualy the common lowest for that size is 32ohm which is still extremly easy to drive without amp. I'd say under 125ohm don't even bother.

I've had some brand new Momemtum "given" to me for only 100$ but I hated the closed design, the small soundstage, the overemphasized bass, the bad confort, etc. I exchanged them for a used pair of DT880 32ohm even though I had a new pair of the same in 250ohm and that I now have the Beyerdynamic T90 which is even better, also in 250ohm.
www.head-fi.org/t/627587/sennheiser-momentum-review

Some people use an external headphone amp to bypass the integrated amp of a DAP which may be of lesser quality....