O2 AMP + ODAC

pocahontas said:

  Hi MrMateoHead :) Thx you for your answere.
 
As you said, you paid a low end motherboard with an older chipset to save up money. Then you use the difference in money you savec on better materials.
But at first, because it's a low end motherboard, it had certainly not very high quality concerning the sound part. Now basicaly every motherboard coming up with the ALC1150 does have a minimum of shield protection.
 
What you said is still interesting but you compared a low end motherboard sound with an older chipset versus an external product. An odac in your motherboard should sound as worse i think.
Here, we are with a good motherboard with shield protection, really better chipset and an integrated amp over the top. It can't really be compared

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Well, in my experience, even for an older chipset, it is a very good one. Best I've owned so far, and I used to rock a Soubdblaster X-Fi with gold-plated jacks, baby. The quality of the motherboard is top notch, but like any "do all" product, its overall cost structure undoubtedly and rightfully prioritizes the audio section far less than, say, the CPU regulators. The lack of "shielding" might be irrelevant depending on its implementation, something neither of us can "decode" on the basis of specs. It may be performing as well as it can, it may not be. Arguing that the ODAC would sound "as worse" as my Realtek chipset were it attached to my motherboard is speculative and assumptive on your part, and in any case irrelevant as you have been asserting that you are trying to make a decision on opinion alone. I don't assume that integrated vs. separate gets an "automatic" performance bonus. IMO, the ODAC in the one form you can have one, wins. Even despite all that "dirty" and jittery USB power I feed it.
 
If you are looking for confirmation of your existing biases, Toms Hardware ran an article awhile back that tried Blind Testing between 4 different DAC/AMPs (one was the Realtek 889, also a better ASUS Xonar, and O2, and a Benchmark). There the two testers concluded that anything more than $2 (the cost of the Realtek chip) was about buying features, not differentiated performance. This conclusion is drawn after realizing that, in blind testing, they could not reliably differentiate between the products. The test utilized the Sennheiser HD 800s and the AKG 550s, neither of which I own. Neither of which I would care to own, either.
 
One issue I have is that, despite not being able to reliably tell the products apart, they did claim somewhat to reliably pick out, or even prefer, the ALC 889 or Asus STX. Also both headphones require only a fraction of a mW to reach very high SPL, and based on professional reviews, both the HD 800 and AKG 550s are not necessarily well received as "reference" headphones (Katz over at Innerfidelity recently eviscerated the 550s). At the end of reading the test, I both agreed with the reviewers, and disagreed. After all, if you can somewhat reliably "hear" the Realtek chipsets, but the rest sound identical, is it possible that it is the other products that in fact perform to a level wherein differences become effectively inaudible? It is possible that the grating treble of each headphone sounds better when "softened" by the Realtek chipset? Hmm . . .
 
In any case, I would tend to agree that most of us can make due with a modern computer and be perfectly satisfied. It is ridiculous that some DACs and Amps cost thousands of dollars. But then again one probably shouldn't do authoritative "blind tests" without some intimate familiarity with their existing speakers and recordings, since the point is to really see if the amp/DAC are making a difference. To some extent you need to know what to listen for. If you fall under the category of "untrained" and "passive" listener, none of this stuff matters.
 
But as a way of circling back around, I feel you should hear someone state that you are right, the ALC 1150/1151 is awesome, I wish I had it instead of my ALC 892, which is probably audibly identical despite inferior specs, no shielding, and a lack of a dedicated amp section. Maybe I could hear the difference, maybe I couldn't. For now, my experience is clear, and the $130 O2 was a reasonable investment - way more reasonable than an external soundcard (which would still leave me needing a little more power) or a multi-thousand dollar solution.

MrMateoHead  :)
 
Yes i know that when i said that the "ODAC would certainly sound as worse than a realtek ALC without shield protection" was a "maybe"
But it seem that it's a very commom pratric in audiophile community to make assumption with nothing to back it up My bad.
 
I do think the real issue with this forum and his overall community in general over the internet, is that there are too few people with enough experiences or even internet reviewers to answere to this question. Every body have the best mid game products and nobody really speak about it clearly. It's a "convenient dark".
To have a minimum of back up, you have to be a real gamer with audiophile stuff and it's rare...
Many people know the old realtek, many know about soundcards and external stuff but very few people are at the same time "real gamer" and "audiophile".
 
Well, i can assume nobody have the answere or want to share it I do think my run into the audiophile world will stop a moment.
I'm not having bad time with my sound atm so why bothering with it? At least my run with DAC is arriving to and end. Will maybe concider buying an akg with an o2... or not. I will just think about some thing else ^^
The best thing to do is wait a few years when i will have to change my motherboard and i will ask this question again.
Integrated stuff will be even better, GPU and CPU will have very good fine engraving...
 
 
Nevertheless, i thanks you all for the time you spend with me.
 
Have a nice day in your enchanting world

pocahontas said:

  Hi guys, i'm new and i got some questions. Who have a good gaming motherboard with shield iem protection,ALC1150 codecs and can compare to his o2+odac combo setup objectivly?
Does it sound really better? Have a nice day (quote my post for better sav )

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I went out of my way to get a motherboard with ALC1150 and settled on a X99 ASRock Extreme 4. I tested it on a O2+ODAC combo and Schiit amp via 3.5mm to RCA and I was not impressed. The DAC on the combo blew it out of the water. There was really no comparison at all IMO and I was really let down as I though motherboard audio had come long way and was especially hopeful after reading reviews on how good the audio was on these new motherboards. My plan was to get rid of the O2+DAC if I could not hear much of difference and just rely on the motherboards DAC with my Schiit but the difference was just too apparent and I could not do it to myself or my headphones.

monoono said:

  I went out of my way to get a motherboard with ALC1150 and settled on a X99 ASRock Extreme 4. I tested it on a O2+ODAC combo and Schiit amp via 3.5mm to RCA and I was not impressed. The DAC on the combo blew it out of the water. There was really no comparison at all IMO and I was really let down as I though motherboard audio had come long way and was especially hopeful after reading reviews on how good the audio was on these new motherboards. My plan was to get rid of the O2+DAC if I could not hear much of difference and just rely on the motherboards DAC with my Schiit but the difference was just too apparent and I could not do it to myself or my headphones.

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Hi, you tried a well set motherboard (shield, amp...) with the ALC1150 and you were not impressed. But the O2+ODAC was way better?
I heard good review of the Purity Sound™ system...

Without contributing much I think external option is better. Pc components get old so fast while u can easily move the external option to your new system.

zankes said:

Without contributing much I think external option is better. Pc components get old so fast while u can easily move the external option to your new system.

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If you are a pc gamer, it's not necessary true. You have to change your computer like every 4-5 years if you are a normal consumer.
And in this lapse of time, motherboard evolve and it's even more true now since the motherboard manufacture are puting a BIG EFFORT concerning the sound implementation.
 
Depending on the stuff you already have, investing now in a o2+odac or equivalent will maybe not be "worth it" for a very long time (or already is )

One thing to consider: You will only have to buy an ODAC once, whereas every motherboard you buy in the future, you will have to go to extra trouble and expense to make sure it's audio performance is adequate. I have an Asus motherboard with an ALC892 interface, and the noise performance is simply abysmal - around 80db to 85db SNR. Sure, I probably could have bought a more expensive motherboard, but if my only concern is audio performance, why bother?

Also, the ODAC is much more versatile. Plug it into your iPhone to achieve a reference quality line output.

Hi,
I recently purchased a DIY O2 off the trade forum here and was met with audio hell. The unit has to be defective as the bass is completely distorted and flabby compared to my Schiit Vali. Putting it on high gain makes the issue even worse, which makes me suspect the issue has something to do with output impedance. From a quick inspection of the board, it seems like (aside from some some sub-par soldering with excess flux left ever where) one of the resistors right below the batteries is chipped with burn marks and a group of solders near the front of the board seem like they could be shorting. But with malfunctioning output impedance in mind, is there any other part of the port that would be particularly suspect?

pocahontas said:

  MrMateoHead  :)
 
1) Yes i know that when i said that the "ODAC would certainly sound as worse than a realtek ALC without shield protection" was a "maybe" But it seem that it's a very commom pratric in audiophile community to make assumption with nothing to back it up My bad.
 
2) I do think the real issue with this forum and his overall community in general over the internet, is that there are too few people with enough experiences or even internet reviewers to answere to this question. Every body have the best mid game products and nobody really speak about it clearly. It's a "convenient dark".
 
3) To have a minimum of back up, you have to be a real gamer with audiophile stuff and it's rare...
Many people know the old realtek, many know about soundcards and external stuff but very few people are at the same time "real gamer" and "audiophile".
 
4) Well, i can assume nobody have the answere or want to share it I do think my run into the audiophile world will stop a moment.
I'm not having bad time with my sound atm so why bothering with it? At least my run with DAC is arriving to and end. Will maybe concider buying an akg with an o2... or not. I will just think about some thing else ^^
 
5) The best thing to do is wait a few years when i will have to change my motherboard and i will ask this question again.
Integrated stuff will be even better, GPU and CPU will have very good fine engraving...
 
 
Nevertheless, i thanks you all for the time you spend with me.
 
Have a nice day in your enchanting world

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I will go point to point with you once more, but clearly this is venturing off-topic at this point.
 
1) It is good that you recognized your own "maybe" was bogus from the get-go - but why bring it up then? It must also be a common practice for non-"audiophiles" to make bogus claims with nothing to back it up - for example, that a modern motherboard sounds better than some low-cost dedicated equipment. The irony is that I've studied this stuff enough and been around long enough to a) make the same claim and b) reject it on the basis of living with both integrated sound solutions, and dedicated "separates". The O2 wins, hands down. The ODAC is bettder, hands down. IF I were only gaming, perhaps no need to upgrade, but I happen to love music so much I felt like investing a little more. If you can't hear the difference, then I envy you. But there are "subjective" differences to driving different cars, using different monitors, or using different cameras, or even lightbulbs that will always make the "murky" practice of combining objective data and subjective experience a murky area. Probably only industry insiders have access to the data that really drive the "value equation", but I am not one, and I don't know any. So I have to gamble my choices like everyone else. But I say that maybe you should consider proving to us why the 1150 is better, and back that up somehow to show me how I was "duped". Please support your argument with real-world examples, data presentation, and a selection of headphones at different price points. Can't do it? Neither can I. Oh well.
 
2) My problem with the Internet is that there is too much garbage information, or not enough information that is actually critical of what it is analyzing. It costs money to review gear, and one mustn't anger the sponsors when they are the source of the product. If you want something approaching "independent 3rd party", I suggest you consider Consumer Reports. Unfortunately, the flow of new products is too fast, and the flow of reviews too minimal. What is more, they've both liked headphones I like, and loved headphones I hate - hmm. Your admitted lack of experience, knowledge and $$$ can be overcome only by you, not us. I do suggest you put some trust into others as you shop around, trust in the "Internet" at places like Amazon where customer feedback is ample at times, and consider that leading brands get into the lead for a reason (and no, it isn't always because they just spend more on marketing). The ancillary to that is that there are small companies, with very good products, that have few employees and a minimal marketing budget. That does not preclude them from being worth your hard-earned money. Caveat Emptor. Were it only a perfect world.
 
3) I am a real gamer and an "audiophile", and 90% of the time I let my dirt-cheap 10 year old Yamaha receiver and cheap-o pioneer speakers pump out the sounds - not my headphones (and I vary from a 2.1 to a 5.1 setup depending on my mood). Perhaps I "drank the kool aid" or perhaps my tastes have changed over the years, but the Pioneers are good to the point I that I have no desire to try to upgrade - I am far more aware of the effect of "the room" than I used to be, and know that spending 10x as much wouldn't stop the windows from rattling or the 30 hz tone from drowning out, well, everything else at times. BTW I also build my own computers and have overclocked (and overclocking is, generally, a waste of time). The only area worth "wasting" money right now is on SSDs - the speed boost is immediately noticeable, period. I've built them for $400, and for $1300. I would never spend more than $2000, and could b**** endlessly about the way in which the Intel monopoly destroys value for all of us (my first gamer rig was an AMD that crushed my friend's Pentium 4).
 
4) The answer was, the O2/ODAC is better than the Realtek ALC 1150. I with I could provide you with measurements to back that statement up, but I don't have thousands of dollars of measuring equipment and I am not sure the specs alone would make it obvious. What I know is that ESS is on top of their game right now, featured in lots of high end gear, 2V out is better than 1V out, and 200-500 mWs offers a lot more headroom than a typical sound card. Were we talking about, say, AV receivers, my product searches would conclude that I probably need to spend $600-$1000 to get the features and power I think are worthwhile, while you might be better off looking for a soundbar or something, which sounds great but won't really compete with my "dedicated" 5.2 setup in overall output and fidelity.
 
5) I think its sad that standards shift so quickly that the $1000 you sink into a computer today cannot meaningfully be re-invested into a new computer in a future. New socket = new mobo, new RAM = new mobo etc. etc. There is no more difficult money pit than staying on top of PC Gaming (I know this, I am a PC Gamer). That said, not EVERYONE should spend $300 on a GPU, but if you're serious and want to play on HIGH, you have to. Period. But man, I miss the days of being able to just upgrade once in awhile, without basically rebuilding from the Mobo-up.
 
Yet you think we're crazy for spending $250-$300 on a sick little Amp and DAC for our sick headphones. HA. To each their own. Good luck to you and enjoy that 1150! I sorta knew there was no convincing you from the get-go but I am a sucker for a good argument.

thekorsen said:

  Hi,
I recently purchased a DIY O2 off the trade forum here and was met with audio hell. The unit has to be defective as the bass is completely distorted and flabby compared to my Schiit Vali. Putting it on high gain makes the issue even worse, which makes me suspect the issue has something to do with output impedance. From a quick inspection of the board, it seems like (aside from some some sub-par soldering with excess flux left ever where) one of the resistors right below the batteries is chipped with burn marks and a group of solders near the front of the board seem like they could be shorting. But with malfunctioning output impedance in mind, is there any other part of the port that would be particularly suspect?

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Hi, 
 
Can you please do some decent macro pictures to affected area? We can compare affected area with O2's schematic and perhaps will get somewhere.
 
You can also ask the same question on diyaudio forum in Home > Forums > Amplifiers > Headphone Systems > The Objective2 (O2) Headphone Amp DIY Project, in case we can't help you here.
 
Thanks, 
Raul.

mrmateohead said:

 

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Hi, i appreciate the time you took to write it up for me.
 
Like i said, audio is really not my territory so i can't compete with you guys. I don't understand the most part of specs and i'm not rich enough and with the ability to try it out propely.
With your own world you said "ALC1150 even with good implementation and a proper amp don't win versus a the O2+ODAC". Like i said, you don't have the equipement to back it up but you engaged your soul by saying it is the true. But sadly i heard the complete opposite from people looking "internetably" (lol) honest too".
 
So, the best way is just to basicaly try it out and see by yourself. Better? not better? placebo or not? matter of tast or measurement to back it up? it's a mic mac
 
I completly agree about your statement over informatic, and technology in general, being versatil and one of the worst investement as a customer you could do. The strategy is to upgrade at the right time : it have to be worth the new technology improvement like (new gravure for cpu and gpu 16mn or lower for exemple) and if you actualy need it for your consommation. The next step is making 4K a standard like the 1080 now.
What the point to paying extra money on some thing you will not use or barely use. It's like buying a 4K 3D projector with "streaming" quality on it
Lately, the last "good" investement i did was on a G sync monitor. It's will be new standard (the principe, not the g sync nvidia propriety) that will improve over time...
 
But now as some one who tried good ALC1150 motherboard, does the AMP can support demanding AKG? by supporting, i want to say  "as good but maybe not better than the o2" ? Because i know that ipod can run it too But not at their full performance (hopefully   ).
It will certainly be the only question where i can have a straight answere
 
Have a good day wherever you leave

To answer that tell us what the specs of the ALC stuff your interested in?

What is it output impedance?
What it its power out at various impedances?
 
What is the sensitivity of your headphones?
 
There are formulas over at DIY audio that will tell you depending on your amp specs and headphone sensitivity if the amp will be able to provide enough power
to work well with your headphones.
 
A.

The only specs I can get on the ALC 1150 are:
 
1.1 Vrms into 1 32 Ohm load.
 
Output impedance of 2 Ohms.
 
The AKG K550s have a measured impedance of 35 Ohm or higher.
 
SO, assuming the 1150 is implemented according to spec, power output is about 34 mWs into a 35 Ohm load, which should be enough to drive the AKGs to ear damaging levels.
 
But, it is not clear if that voltage holds constant at any other impedance loads (current limitations?)
 
Thus if the headphones are loud with your cellphone, a tablet, or an Mp3 player (which typically are in the 1V range, probably), you would probably be satisfied. But, alas, I know this only in theory, since there is not enough objective information from which to estimate the adequacy of the pairing. Where my PSBs require slightly less power to reach 90 dB (0.06 mW vs. 0.09 mW), I'd guess that any device such as the 1150 with 1.1V rms or more would be enough power. I would assume that only the headphone jack, as labeled, provides the power estimated and meets the spec'd 96 dB of dynamic range and -75 db THD (about 0.02%??). The other jacks might be high output impedance, less powerful etc. Who knows?
 
Just to be sure, I plugged my PSBs into my Nexus for you. Very similar load, very similar theoretical power. Sounds great with classical playing, except for a lot of hiss at the "cranked" levels . Of course, you'd better stick with high-efficiency dynamics with relatively flat impedance curves for best results. Those high-swing curves will want more voltage than you theoretically might have.

raoultrifan said:

  Hi, 
 
Can you please do some decent macro pictures to affected area? We can compare affected area with O2's schematic and perhaps will get somewhere.
 
You can also ask the same question on diyaudio forum in Home > Forums > Amplifiers > Headphone Systems > The Objective2 (O2) Headphone Amp DIY Project, in case we can't help you here.
 
Thanks, 
Raul.

Click to expand...

Hi Raul,
I did my best to capture the area of interest, as well of the whole unit itself for reference. I'll be sure to take your advice and head to diyaudio later to ask that community if we can't sort it out here. Also, note this unit was modded for a 1/4 '' plug, with the plug squeezed over the bottom right area of the board. This is why I suspect it is taped there, to make sure the plug doesn't accidentally short anything.
 
Top view:
 

 
 
Bottom view:
 

 
 
Potentially damaged areas:
 

 
-Ryan