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Final Audio Design Appreciation/Discussion Thread - Page 72

post #1066 of 3939
Quote:
Originally Posted by allbald View Post

I have had ety's for a long time and this is interesting.  However, some others have mentioned the PFs have some horn speaker qualities.  If that is the case then I can understand why people might think they sound odd.  Those types of speakers create very strong reactions regardless of how accurate the horn speaker is.  If the PFs are anything like that then I can see it.

You know, I get the reference to horns, heck I have made it myself, but there are horns and horns! It is not about right or wrong either its just that for balance it is good to understand why I hear what I hear and what another hears that way anyone else can get a clearer picture.

I must admit I never thought I would see the day for instance where I found the LCD's a headphone I would not want to listen to. For others it still remains wonderful and that is great as each to his or her own. I often scratch my head late at night whilst listening to the PF's and think how could I go so far away from my almost 18 month opinion of loving the LCD's!
post #1067 of 3939
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianmedium View Post

MF,

Can you define why they sound weird?
 

 

 

Keep in mind that weird isn't a negative term in my lexicon. To me, the Piano Forte line sounds quite unlike the vast majority of IEMs I've listened to over the years. That's part of the reason I like it so much.

 

That being said, they are bandwidth limited. The low and high ends of the sonic spectrum are pretty significantly rolled off, giving them a distinctly "vintage" sound. Others have called it "mid-centric." Still others have [less favorably] compared it to the sound of an old radio or telephone. I've seen measurements for them, sure. Measurements are helpful in that they provide a snapshot divorced from rhetoric, and ultimately how one chooses to interpret that information is up to one's own tastes and priorities. That's just one part of the overall puzzle however, and measurements don't tell the whole story by any means, which is why I also suggest people read a variety of subjective impressions. The majority of the impressions I've read for the PFs---and the majority of those I've spoken to about them---seem to suggest they sound significantly unlike other IEMs. I believe this is due to their unique frequency response above all else. Again, whether that's a good thing or not is up to the individual, and terms like "natural" are pretty ambiguous. I mean, some people feel the LCD-2 rev. 1 is a very natural transducer which faithfully captures the sound of instruments. I don't. But to each their own as they say.

 

Really it's pretty awesome that some of you guys "get" these and find they sound natural. Then again you have impressions like Shotgunshane's, impressions from someone who was utterly baffled by them. In and of itself, that suggests to me that these are highly polarizing. That alone is enough to make me cautious in recommending them. Of course, everything on head-fi is polarizing (which is why I tend to be cautious about recommending anything lol). Some are more polarizing than others, however. Unfortunately with the PFs the sample size is fairly small relative to others.

 

I know we all tend to get a bit defensive about that stuff---- at least, I know I do. However when it comes to people asking for advice on how to spend a significant amount of money, I tend to get very uncomfortable and go into overly-cautious mode. That's why I whole heartedly suggest people listen for themselves or, if that isn't possible, buy from someone with a good return policy.

post #1068 of 3939
Oh that is great MF, its not that I am getting defensive about it, its just that I like to learn the reasoning by others perceptions as that way I learn and can either realize my perceptions are right for me or they need adjustment which is the motivation for asking you.

I think one of the things I am trying to get my head around is the extension thing. I think that is where if I can explain I feel these to be more natural (for something reproducing that is, there will always be a big difference between real and reproduced) When I listen to bass with these whilst it is true they do not go deep as say a JH does for me the depth they do go tends to portray the real event in a way I find more appropriate, oh this is hard to explain!

The JH's and others of that ilk that deliver ooodles of bass for me are an exaggeration of the live performance beyond what I feel is believable to my perceptions and memory of that event, likewise treble extension if too far is too much of an exaggeration which is why I described is as a caricature rather than something resembling the event live and yet those same headphones measure really well on the whole.

I agree now with the LCD comment but before the PF's I probably would not have. I think this is where I come to trust your ears more than most here as you have long and real experience with many many headphones.

I totally get the vintage radio thing as well, last night listening to Edith Piaff is a case in point of proving that!

I think where I get lost in my perceptions are occasions where i listen say to Paul Simons slip sliding away. There is an almost imperceptible triangle played in the background on that track, simply with the LCD's or Ortofons that feels like acoustic feedback, heck, even on the ety's it is not that clear but with the PF's it is clear as day, positioning, texture and even down to the difference in pitch as the stick hits different parts of the triangle are clear. Now that is the top end and there is oodles of detail its just not harsh or forced.

Does any of that make sense? Or am I just a rambling fool biggrin.gif

Once again though, I will say, what is one of the most wonderful things about this company is that it spurs on intelligent and thoughtful discussions on the perception and enjoyment of music, that for me is reason enough to own a product by them!
Edited by ianmedium - 2/10/13 at 8:49am
post #1069 of 3939
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianmedium View Post

...
Once again though, I will say, what is one of the most wonderful things about this company is that it spurs on intelligent and thoughtful discussions on the perception and enjoyment of music, that for me is reason enough to own a product by them!

 

I want to emphasize what both of you have suggested here.  First without some thoughtful responses, I would never have even looked at the FI-BA-SS.  The description you gave helped me to understand that it was the sound I wanted.

 

I have had Ety's, Shures and PFE before this one.  And to me, the FI-BA-SS does what most of those do but even a better job of getting the timbre/tone of vocals correct while not losing details/treble extension.  To me its a more refined version of the Ety's (at least from memory, not A/B comparisons).  Which is exactly what I was looking for.   So I am quite thrilled about these.

 

I also think that MF mentioned that there was an "artful" aspect to FAD.  I think this is on the money.  They are voiced I suspect for both some technical correctness but to sound detailed and musical at the same time.  I find it amazing that the details are not lost while still staying musical without being mid-forward.

 

I stilll might get the PFs to satisfy my curiosity but not go whole hog on the X's.


Edited by allbald - 2/10/13 at 10:21am
post #1070 of 3939
Allbald, I agree, artful is a great description, if you ever happen to be in the Vancouver area I would be more than happy to let you try my pair out.

i also think your comment on timbre and tone is very important as I believe that to be the key to understanding the FAD sound.
post #1071 of 3939
Quote:
Originally Posted by zilch0md View Post

 

It's possible I'm simply ignorant of a very common technique, but I'm impressed with how he bounces his bow on the strings at precisely the desired tempo.  Very cool!

 

No expert here either, but Garcia-Fons is considered one of the world's most innovative bass players, so I don't think much of what he does is very common technique. Also, did you notice the additional 5th string? I allows him to play his contrabass in the violin tone range!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuppetFace View Post

 I'm a fan of Final. Heck, I have a Final Audio tattoo.

 

I've always maintained Final's stuff should be judged more on the criteria of functional artwork. That being said, I still strongly feel that the Piano Fortes are about as niche / specialty / weird-sounding as you can get and are by no means whatsoever "natural" sounding. Of course that's a wholly subjective assessment, and you might find they sound as natural as the dickens. If at all possible, try to audition these ahead of time or buy them from someone who will let you return them for a full refund if you don't like their sound.

 

I'm a FAD fan too, but what keeps me from getting a tattoo is the fact that "FAD" (spoken with a drawl, like "nah") means "UTTERLY BORING" in our local Viennese dialect.  wink.gif

 

Anyway, I agree with everything said and might add that sometimes omitting things is a deliberate trick to make other things stand out. In case of the FAD 1601 and 1602 (Piano Forte), part of the bass and treble range were obviously sacrificed to draw attention to the mids, which are still not "accurate" or "natural" in the traditional sense, but rather achieve some kind of weird and alluring finesse that some people seem to "get" and others simply don't.

 

What's more (and rarely mentioned), these have lots of reverb and decay from their metal housings, which adds a particular ambience, not unlike that of a church recording, to everything you play. This has the power to both make music sound exceptional and ruin it completely.

post #1072 of 3939
Quote:
Originally Posted by james444 View Post

 

I'm a FAD fan too, but what keeps me from getting a tattoo is the fact that "FAD" (spoken with a drawl, like "nah") means "UTTERLY BORING" in our local Viennese dialect.  wink.gif

 

Anyway, I agree with everything said and might add that sometimes omitting things is a deliberate trick to make other things stand out. In case of the FAD 1601 and 1602 (Piano Forte), part of the bass and treble range were obviously sacrificed to draw attention to the mids, which are still not "accurate" or "natural" in the traditional sense, but rather achieve some kind of weird and alluring finesse that some people seem to "get" and others simply don't.

 

What's more (and rarely mentioned), these have lots of reverb and decay from their metal housings, which adds a particular ambience, not unlike that of a church recording, to everything you play. This has the power to both make music sound exceptional and ruin it completely.

 

Hello, I'm shotgunshane and I'm a 'non-getter'.

 

I agree on the reverb and decay.  However I enjoy reading everyone's passion for how they portray their favorite music.

 

Am I the only one that thinks James having a tattoo that says "utterly boring" would be awesome?!?!

post #1073 of 3939
Quote:
Originally Posted by shotgunshane View Post


Am I the only one that thinks James having a tattoo that says "utterly boring" would be awesome?!?!

No! I think we should start a poll to see who thinks it is a good idea biggrin.gif

Reminds me of a friend who had some Asian letter tattooed on her leg that was meant to say peace but then a friend of a friend who spoke the language said it actually said Onion!
post #1074 of 3939
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianmedium View Post

I think one of the things I am trying to get my head around is the extension thing. I think that is where if I can explain I feel these to be more natural (for something reproducing that is, there will always be a big difference between real and reproduced) When I listen to bass with these whilst it is true they do not go deep as say a JH does for me the depth they do go tends to portray the real event in a way I find more appropriate, oh this is hard to explain!

Does any of that make sense? Or am I just a rambling fool biggrin.gif
 

 

Actually, it makes sense. I was just thinking about this earlier today in fact. Seems like something that has to do with expectations and what we listen to with them: for instance, some genres and recordings are going to be more midcentric. In fact a lot of live performances will probably sound very natural on a midcentric earphone like these. As James mentions, the echo / reverb from the housings give it an ambience that is very "room like." So if you're listening to certain instruments in certain acoustic spaces, these will be just fine. On the other hand, someone who listens to genres and recordings that require a lot of bass or treble energy to sound natural will more likely notice something "off." While you may not encounter bass to that extent during, say, a live acoustic performance, it's still tantamount to the experience of that particular genre.

 

For me, I think I purposefully choose to push the PFs to their limits precisely because it emphasizes their unique signature which is defined in part by those limits. I like listening to a lot of pop and shoegazer music on these because it has an almost dream-like quality due to the housings like James mentions.

 

RE: Final tattoo:

 

Thankfully it doesn't say "FAD" but simply "Final" in the company's script. If anyone asks I just say it's part of my obsession with tormenting students.


Edited by MuppetFace - 2/11/13 at 2:59am
post #1075 of 3939
I love your description of shoe gazer music, I completely know the artists you mean when you use that description!

I see what you mean about this. I remember going to a reggae concert many years ago in London, there is no way the PF's could produce the bass levels I heard at that concert but then again I don't think any headphone can as it is not moving enough air like speakers can. With the right speakers one comes close to the PA levels. However headphones with a deeper bass centric presentation can relive that moment for those who remember it that way. Speakers of course can give the physical feeling of air moving against your body.

Now for me I chose to remember that sound with a lighter bass note but very well defined that is how the reproduction connects me emotionally to the memory of that concert.

Others memories will be triggered by a greater exaggeration of that bass note and this is where it comes to my thoughts on this yesterday and why this discussion in not turning into a pissing match!

We all chose to have an individual interpretation of an event we have experienced, that is what turns a concert into a personal experience and in my experience of working with artists that is what they hope to achieve, to connect with each individual in the audience on a personal level to create and intimate experience.

When we aim to achive that connection in the reproduction of that event the same has to happen which is where the equipment comes in in replaying that.

As long as the recording has been done well we can tune that recording by equipment chosen closest to our memories.

It is why I feel simply saying something is good because it measures well is I feel nonsense. Heck, if a pair of beats connected someone on an emotional level to the music who am I to say that is wrong just because it does not for me.

I think this is why this discussion is so good, we are all acknowledging our individuality in how we hear. For me, for someone looking in thinking about getting a new pair of headphones these sort of discussions are the most helpful as hopefully they will encourage them to go out and listen and make their choice not on what you or I like but upon what they like!

This has been really illuminating for me MF, I really appreciate the discourse.
Edited by ianmedium - 2/11/13 at 9:55am
post #1076 of 3939

Anyone here had issues with their FI-BA-SS's?

 

I just started experiencing crackling in the left earbud when any bass is played. Is my driver screwed? May or may not be relevant, but one part of the stainless steel housing of the earbud came off pretty much by itself from the same ear. The front most portion...i was going to get some epoxy or something similar but just a small piece of tape over it in the meantime.  It was working fine until the cable accidently got caught on something, and that's when the bass distortion started. It only happens at a medium to higher volume...this was not the case before.   Is it possible it's a cable issue instead? i've tried pulling and adjusting to see if it made a difference but it hasn't.  

 

 

http://final-audio-design.com/en/archives/107

The front most part where the ear pads attach to it is what became dislodged. The only portion of the driver that can be exposed to anything is the round little tubular part in the diagram. Like i said, it was fine until the cable got caught up. 

 

The pair i have was actually given to me as a sample, so i have no warranty on it. Which would be a total bummer if they're not salvageable...i loved these things. From what i've read hair can often be the culprit, but that seems easier to address or occur in full size headphones...not necessarily earbuds


Edited by y0shelite - 2/11/13 at 2:43pm
post #1077 of 3939

Can someone please start a Heaven VI review/appreciation thread? The only information about this model is in this thread, and is very hard to find.

From what I've read, VI is a great IEM that is being overlooked.

 

Is Heaven VI worth having alongside Heaven IV? Or would I be better off with another IEM?

I do love Heaven IV.

 

According to the Techno Kid's signature, BA200 is better then Heaven IV. How would you compare Heaven VI to BA200, TDK IE800, JVC FXZ-200, Vsonic GR01 or R-50?

 

Swimsonny wrote on December 31st that Heaven VI is on the way - did I miss his review? His review of Heaven IV was my main reason for purchase.


Edited by BenF - 2/11/13 at 7:05pm
post #1078 of 3939
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenF View Post

Can someone please start a Heaven VI review/appreciation thread? The only information about this model is in this thread, and is very hard to find.
From what I've read, VI is a great IEM that is being overlooked.

Is Heaven VI worth having alongside Heaven IV? Or would I be better off with another IEM?
I do love Heaven IV.

According to the Techno Kid's signature, BA200 is better then Heaven IV. How would you compare Heaven VI to BA200, TDK IE800, JVC FXZ-200, Vsonic GR01 or R-50?

Swimsonny wrote on December 31st that Heaven VI is on the way - did I miss his review? His review of Heaven IV was my main reason for purchase.

Yes I totally second that. Quite interested in those too after having been through with the iv since the fi-bass just seems to be out of my reach
Edited by Typ500 - 2/11/13 at 10:25pm
post #1079 of 3939
Oh btw, just curious if anyone uses complys with their fads. The stock tips can get slightly uncomfortable at times
post #1080 of 3939
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenF View Post

Can someone please start a Heaven VI review/appreciation thread? The only information about this model is in this thread, and is very hard to find.

From what I've read, VI is a great IEM that is being overlooked.

 

Is Heaven VI worth having alongside Heaven IV? Or would I be better off with another IEM?

I do love Heaven IV.

 

According to the Techno Kid's signature, BA200 is better then Heaven IV. How would you compare Heaven VI to BA200, TDK IE800, JVC FXZ-200, Vsonic GR01 or R-50?

 

Swimsonny wrote on December 31st that Heaven VI is on the way - did I miss his review? His review of Heaven IV was my main reason for purchase.

I have Heaven VI, purchased based on this thread, thanks to MF, SF, james.

 

Mine are copper ones (I like them better then gold ones), bought from Japan (Amazon has the best price for this model), used tenso.com to forward parcel to Russia, total accounting for circa 500 USD, I think.

 

I love FAD sound, I currently have Ortofon E-Q7, Senn IE7, had Etys 4. For desktop I use Beta 22 balanced amp, Buffalo III DAC, Electrocompaniet EMC 1UP, my headphones are HD 800, LCD 2 rev.1, Denon 7000, all balanced.

 

I do not have much experience with IEMs, but I love HVII sound very much. They open up after some burn in, playing lots of details never heard on familiar recordings, decay seems to be endless. To my surprise they are quite impressive on rock records. HVI seem to be a level up from my E-Q7.

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