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Headphone & Amp Impedance Questions? Find the answers here! - Page 11

post #151 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom22 View Post

thanks for your time in writing that  response, i really enjoyed reading it =) i'm still new to the specs on headphones and been only watching some youtube videos about them saying things like (bigger drivers= more bass) i now feel like an idiot listening to that. 

I think the biggest problem with discussions about audio, is the risk of over-generalizing. For example, bigger drivers can mean more bass, but by themselves do not guarantee it.
Quote:
i am using an iphone 3gs and i'm trying to look for an eq that fixes the noontecs notch at about 4k cause otherwise i'm very pleased with all other aspects of the headphone except the lack of isolation

the iphone eq is pretty hard bad, you can't make a custom one, so i found myself leaving it alone (the knotch at 4k doesn't really matter too much to me but i would like the possiblity to fix that if i so choose)

Does Accudio have the Zoros in its database? I also remember hearing about an Audyssey app for iDevices that includes an EQ - might look into that. I'm sure both of these cost money btw. redface.gif
post #152 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by obobskivich View Post

It's all relative, basically - if you're talking from the perspective of an AC powered integrated amplifier or CD player, it really truly doesn't matter what specifications your headphones have...

 

This is reassuring, but I still wonder if these (relatively expensive) headphones I'm about to buy might have any sound degradation or distortion because the headphones have such low impedance.  I'm about to buy Sony MDR-7520 headphones, specs say impedance is 24 Ohms.  My old home receiver is a Denon DRA-275R, specs say amplifier impedance is 8 Ohms.  That's less than the 1:8 impedance load ratio that's suggested.  Do you think they'll still sound good?

 

Other specs on the headphones: closed-ear, sensitivity is 108 dB/mW, power handling is 4,000mW, frequency response is 5-80kHz, driver size 50.0mm.  Thanks!

post #153 of 221

The amplifiers output impedance is 0.1 ohm, but that's the speaker output. The headphone output on receivers is usually in the hundreds of ohms. Yamaha for example uses 470 ohm on many of their receivers.

I doubt you'd even come close to the 1/8th rule on most receiver headphone jacks even if your headphones had an impedance of several hundred ohms.

post #154 of 221

Thank you very much, xnor!

post #155 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by xnor View Post

The amplifiers output impedance is 0.1 ohm, but that's the speaker output. The headphone output on receivers is usually in the hundreds of ohms. Yamaha for example uses 470 ohm on many of their receivers.

I doubt you'd even come close to the 1/8th rule on most receiver headphone jacks even if your headphones had an impedance of several hundred ohms.


That is extremely high impedance. Why, given the impacts of high output impedance on phones, would manufacturers do that? Are there any brands known for having really good headphone jacks?

post #156 of 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMateoHead View Post

That is extremely high impedance. Why, given the impacts of high output impedance on phones, would manufacturers do that? Are there any brands known for having really good headphone jacks?

 

Doesn't cost much to just put a big resistor between the speaker amp output and the headphone jack and call it a day. (Adding extra parts to implement a headphone amp most people wouldn't use would cost money.) Plug headphones in, and for many you'll get a reasonable volume. For plenty of headphones, this won't particularly alter the sound much; for others, it could be different, but different isn't necessarily worse. (well, usually it is, in these scenarios)

 

That said, I think a lot of those class D chip amps these days include an integrated headphone amp in the chip, so that's kind of a freebie that can be used instead that may have decent specs for driving headphones.

post #157 of 221

Hypothetically, what can happen if speaker level input is fed into a headphone amp?  Lets assume all different kinds of powered amps here.

post #158 of 221

It depends on the design of the headphone amp.

 

With something like the O2 the op amps in the gain stage could "die", or you'll at least get extreme clipping. With other headphone amps you may be fine but only if you turn the volume control all the way down. Still, I wouldn't suggest hooking up a headphone amp to a speaker amp, not even using the headphone jack of the amp/receiver. We have line-outs with standardized line levels for a reason.

post #159 of 221

Thanks.  So what exactly is 'line-out standardization'?  As in, what are the expected maximum levels?  How can I measure a source to see if its in spec?  I have a 'Pro' Denon cassette deck DN-790R which has its HP output tied to its line out (by design) with no volume adjustment on the HP out.  Its way too loud to drive any HP and I'm just going to hook it up using a passive limiter (Art Headtap) but I'm curious how I can measure the Denon's output to see how high it can go.  What kind of instrument can I use?  Can I use a DMM with Vrms and say a 440hz tone with the record levels at max?  Pink noise?


Edited by shaocaholica - 10/4/13 at 8:26pm
post #160 of 221

Use tones at a few frequencies (some DMMs are only usable in a rather narrow frequency range). Something like 50 or 60 Hz, and 400 or 1000 Hz. If you are lucky, the measured levels will not differ too much (for example, I get less than 1% variation in the range 30 to 2000 Hz with a cheap old DMM, but others might be much worse, especially some newer cheap ones with "true RMS" capability). Otherwise, if there is a large difference, you should probably trust the value at 50-60 Hz. It is also recommended to measure how much the level drops with a resistor load, and calculate the output impedance.

post #161 of 221

We have the consumer -10 dBV which is about 0.316 Vrms and pro audio (usually balanced) +4 dBu which is about 1.228 Vrms. Those are nominal levels. Professional equipment for example may have headroom up to +24 dBu so there won't be clipping up to about 12.3 Vrms.

 

CD players usually output 2 Vrms for a full-scale sine wave, as do some DACs.

post #162 of 221

Perhaps related to this topic, I did some tests on how the output impedance of the amplifier affects the distortion of dynamic headphones. The headphone tested was a DT880 Pro (250 Ω), using sine sweeps at 0.68 and 0.22 Vrms voltage on the drivers at 1 kHz, and with output impedances of 10.3 Ω (Xonar Essence STX headphone output) and ~110 Ω (using 100 Ω serial resistors).

 

Unfortunately, the measurements at low levels contain too much microphone and ambient noise. At the higher level, I repeated the tests twice, to be able to verify the repeatability of the results. The sweeps played were equalized so that the SPL and frequency response are matched at the low and high output impedance. The graphs below assume that 1 Vrms voltage on the driver at 1 kHz produces 100 dB SPL. This is probably not accurate, but the levels on each graph should be consistent nevertheless. Only the right channel was tested.

These are the results I got (click to zoom):

 

Frequency response: from left to right: microphone, headphone driver, amp output

       

THD vs. frequency: from left to right: microphone, headphone driver, amp output

       

Driver impedance vs. frequency:


Increasing the output impedance of the amplifier does indeed seem to increase the bass distortion of the driver, especially around its resonance frequency. This cannot be explained with the amp "working harder" (see graphs), or the headphone having to produce a higher SPL in the bass range (because it is equalized). The effect is not major, however, it is a difference of about 2 dB, but it is there. With a low impedance source that is equalized to match the frequency response of a high impedance one - which is what I did  - the distortion is lower than it is with actual high output impedance.

 

Although the effect probably varies depending on the headphone model, and some are more affected than others. It would be interesting to try the same with orthodynamic headphones, to confirm if they are not only a more or less purely resistive load, but also fairly linear as well.


Edited by stv014 - 10/31/13 at 11:37am
post #163 of 221
Thread Starter 

Hi guys,

After searching for a simpler way to explain these concepts to the many people who ask for advice, I've added a Hydraulic Analogy in the beginning. I think it can help form a good abstraction for the concepts in the proceeding sections.

post #164 of 221

Thank you, proton007.  Your explanation of electrical dampening was the easiest to understand of all the ones I read.  Your article is very useful and informational, thank you for taking the time.

post #165 of 221
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eujaee View Post
 

Thank you, proton007.  Your explanation of electrical dampening was the easiest to understand of all the ones I read.  Your article is very useful and informational, thank you for taking the time.

 

:beerchug:

 

 

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