In the car world we have a saying, "there's no replacement for displacement". You can bend the rules a little, but it's easier to get higher performance with more volume, engines or speakers, it's a fact. Dr. Bose may say otherwise, but that's Bose. (Since Obob isn't around anymore, I don't have to watch what I say about them.)


Tonight I was looking through the various auction catalogs for the Monterey Concourse in August, and I've decided that high end auctions are the absolute worst places to buy cars. While Mecum is okay; lower buyer premiums, less snooty, and more flexible to deal with, others like Gooding, RM, and Russo & Steele are a real PITA. The only reason why people flock to them is so they can be seen overpaying for something they actually have little interest in. I was considering go out there for that weekend, but I have no interest in making the scene, and paying a hefty premium just for the "privilege". Bleh. :rolleyes: Also, their selection this year is really poor compared to years past, maybe other people are zeroing in on the issues too?

vortexblast said:

I still can't put my head around on why a high-end speaker can costs upward of $50k. Is it the material of the drivers? The enclosure? Or just the research and development that justifies its price tag?

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Yes, yes, and yes, all of the above. It's an expensive product because it's an expensive process with expensive materials. Since Wilson only sells a hundred Alexandrias in a year, and they're all meticulously handmade (the paint on them is better than on a Ferrari), they're priced in accordance to what he needs to make a profit. While I think $160k is still ridiculous, I can't fault the quality in any way, they're breathtaking monitors.

billybob_jcv said:

I don't think you can justify the cost of any summit-fi products with terms like "value". The cost to produce the product is also not a direct relationship to the selling price. I suspect selling price is set more by what they believe they can get people to pay - then they work backwards to set the target cost to produce and the total investment the company is willing to make to launch the product.

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More or less, yes. However, where Wilson is concerned, their R&D expenses are nuts. They constantly build, teardown, build, teardown, over and over again, trying all manner of materials, forms, and electronics. There's a lot of money that goes into each model.

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magick man said:

In the car world we have a saying, "there's no replacement for displacement". You can bend the rules a little, but it's easier to get higher performance with more volume, engines or speakers, it's a fact. Dr. Bose may say otherwise, but that's Bose.

(Since Obob isn't around anymore, I don't have to watch what I say about them.)


Tonight I was looking through the various auction catalogs for the Monterey Concourse in August, and I've decided that high end auctions are the absolute worst places to buy cars. While Mecum is okay; lower buyer premiums, less snooty, and more flexible to deal with, others like Gooding, RM, and Russo & Steele are a real PITA. The only reason why people flock to them is so they can be seen overpaying for something they actually have little interest in. I was considering go out there for that weekend, but I have no interest in making the scene, and paying a hefty premium just for the "privilege". Bleh.

Also, their selection this year is really poor compared to years past, maybe other people are zeroing in on the issues too?

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In racing we used to say "The only way to beat cubic inches is with cubic dollars".
 
One look at the farce known as Barret Jackson, is all you need to figure out it's basically a game show for the rich and frivolous. They seem to exist for no other reason than to drive prices sky high on cars that would be a hard sell otherwise.

All collecting is the same at the summit - more of a fashion statement than a hobby. I have a friend that is in the rare flower business (a particular species) - and in addition to breeding, growing and selling high-end plants - he also lectures to clubs on various topics related to growing & judging the flowers. One of the odd parts of his business is consulting to wealthy people on how to care for their collections. He will travel to their very expensive homes in Beverly Hills, Belaire, Malibu, Orange County, etc and see their plants and give them advice. HOWEVER - in almost all cases, he doesn't really talk to the owners. He talks to the groundskeepers and gardeners that actually care for the plants. The actual owner knows nothing about the plants - except that they are rare and expensive. All the owner cares about is how rare the plant is and how many awards it has won. It doesn't matter if it is flowers, cars, horses, dogs, wine or whatever. IMHO, once you have no actual interest in the items you are collecting, and all you care about is the bragging rights, then you no longer get to claim it is your hobby.

Here's another story... I once worked for a high-tech electronics company who's founder was your typical techie geek engineer - it's the old high-tech dream - he had a good idea and he and a few of his engineer friends worked their butts off to create a company worth hundreds of millions of dollars. He built a beautiful & huge home that included a very large wine cellar that was temp & humidity controlled - all the bells & whistles. He maintained an extensive wine collection worth big bucks. Only one problem... He and his family are Mormons. They don't drink wine or any alcohol at all - absolutely none. The wine cellar and the wine was there ONLY to impress the other nouveau riche that were invited to his home for dinner. He hired wine buyers to stock his cellar with the best bottles they could buy and to monitor and run the high-tech wine cellar.

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billybob_jcv said:

I don't think you can justify the cost of any summit-fi products with terms like "value". The cost to produce the product is also not a direct relationship to the selling price. I suspect selling price is set more by what they believe they can get people to pay - then they work backwards to set the target cost to produce and the total investment the company is willing to make to launch the product.

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I thinks that's how pretty much everything is now priced. Consider fuel, for example. I have a Jeep Wrangler JK two dor, a car you guys in the US will know all about. To fill it with diesel now costs me $135 USD. $135 USD for one single tank of diesel!!! Do you smoke? A pack of 20 over hear now costs $13 USD. The price of everything has now gone beyond a joke. It's now cheaper to fly to the other side of Europe than it is to travel 100 miles up the road in your car.

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billybob_jcv said:

All collecting is the same at the summit - more of a fashion statement than a hobby. I have a friend that is in the rare flower business (a particular species) - and in addition to breeding, growing and selling high-end plants - he also lectures to clubs on various topics related to growing & judging the flowers. One of the odd parts of his business is consulting to wealthy people on how to care for their collections. He will travel to their very expensive homes in Beverly Hills, Belaire, Malibu, Orange County, etc and see their plants and give them advice. HOWEVER - in almost all cases, he doesn't really talk to the owners. He talks to the groundskeepers and gardeners that actually care for the plants. The actual owner knows nothing about the plants - except that they are rare and expensive. All the owner cares about is how rare the plant is and how many awards it has won. It doesn't matter if it is flowers, cars, horses, dogs, wine or whatever. IMHO, once you have no actual interest in the items you are collecting, and all you care about is the bragging rights, then you no longer get to claim it is your hobby.

Here's another story... I once worked for a high-tech electronics company who's founder was your typical techie geek engineer - it's the old high-tech dream - he had a good idea and he and a few of his engineer friends worked their butts off to create a company worth hundreds of millions of dollars. He built a beautiful & huge home that included a very large wine cellar that was temp & humidity controlled - all the bells & whistles. He maintained an extensive wine collection worth big bucks. Only one problem... He and his family are Mormons. They don't drink wine or any alcohol at all - absolutely none. The wine cellar and the wine was there ONLY to impress the other nouveau riche that were invited to his home for dinner. He hired wine buyers to stock his cellar with the best bottles they could buy and to monitor and run the high-tech wine cellar.

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On the other hand if he's not dumb enough to let people drink the really good stuff, it appreciates at an alarming rate and can be a great investment.

It's funny. If you ever have the pleasure of travelling to Monaco you notice the residents with the stainless Rolex or Patek or whatever, and they absolutely sneer at the "new money" gold and gilt crowd. It is considered quite tacky to try and impress with boutique bling.

hutnicks said:

On the other hand if he's not dumb enough to let people drink the really good stuff, it appreciates at an alarming rate and can be a great investment.


It's funny. If you ever have the pleasure of travelling to Monaco you notice the residents with the stainless Rolex or Patek or whatever, and they absolutely sneer at the "new money" gold and gilt crowd. It is considered quite tacky to try and impress with boutique bling.

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I've noticed it too! It's human sadly. Jealousy, haa jealousy.
It's like ibuds users bashing beats users.

hutnicks said:

In racing we used to say "The only way to beat cubic inches is with cubic dollars".

One look at the farce known as Barret Jackson, is all you need to figure out it's basically a game show for the rich and frivolous. They seem to exist for no other reason than to drive prices sky high on cars that would be a hard sell otherwise.

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BJ is awful all the way around, at least Gooding will make sure the cars are sorted and in working order, unless otherwise stated. Sure, there may be some niggles, like a bad washer pump or a non-working radio, but Barrett will enthusiastically sell you a pig in a poke (albeit one that's been nicely detailed). Also, I've heard they're more likely to take bids off the wall, and they deliberately choose to operate in one of the few states where the practice is still legal. That's one of the sore points I have with bidding online or via telephone, you can't look for the other bidders. (Part of the fun is making eye contact and gaming them, too). I'll still keep working with Mecum, but that's about it.

billybob_jcv said:

All collecting is the same at the summit - more of a fashion statement than a hobby. I have a friend that is in the rare flower business (a particular species) - and in addition to breeding, growing and selling high-end plants - he also lectures to clubs on various topics related to growing & judging the flowers. One of the odd parts of his business is consulting to wealthy people on how to care for their collections. He will travel to their very expensive homes in Beverly Hills, Belaire, Malibu, Orange County, etc and see their plants and give them advice. HOWEVER - in almost all cases, he doesn't really talk to the owners. He talks to the groundskeepers and gardeners that actually care for the plants. The actual owner knows nothing about the plants - except that they are rare and expensive. All the owner cares about is how rare the plant is and how many awards it has won. It doesn't matter if it is flowers, cars, horses, dogs, wine or whatever. IMHO, once you have no actual interest in the items you are collecting, and all you care about is the bragging rights, then you no longer get to claim it is your hobby.

Here's another story... I once worked for a high-tech electronics company who's founder was your typical techie geek engineer - it's the old high-tech dream - he had a good idea and he and a few of his engineer friends worked their butts off to create a company worth hundreds of millions of dollars. He built a beautiful & huge home that included a very large wine cellar that was temp & humidity controlled - all the bells & whistles. He maintained an extensive wine collection worth big bucks. Only one problem... He and his family are Mormons. They don't drink wine or any alcohol at all - absolutely none. The wine cellar and the wine was there ONLY to impress the other nouveau riche that were invited to his home for dinner. He hired wine buyers to stock his cellar with the best bottles they could buy and to monitor and run the high-tech wine cellar.

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Yep, I hear the Romneys have quite a cellar. In all things, there are collectors and there are enthusiasts, they aren't mutually exclusive, but in the auto world they generally are. Some people have bucked the trend, like Leno, Seinfeld, and Tim Allen. They have money and keep a huge collection of vehicles, but they also know practically every nut and bolt on every one of them. In my mind, it's the difference between being a true amateur (you do it because you love cars) and an investor/speculator. That links to what I talked about earlier, the values of certain vintage Ferraris. These are now status markers for billionaires, and a man isn't a man unless he has a 250 Cali or GTO in a hermetically sealed viewing salon. *spit* :mad: I have great respect for people like the BBC's Chris Evans, who aren't billionaires, but build collections to preserve the classics and drive the nuts off them. Chris has actually caught flack for putting ~3k miles on his Coburn Cali since he bought it, oh the horror! I hope he wills it to someone who will drive it and care for it, and it doesn't end up rotting in the hidden warehouse of some sheik somewhere. Other, lesser known Ferrari models, haven't received that attention, but with such limited numbers and the ever-growing population of billionaire playboys, it's inevitable that they will.

There are other vintage models I want, but not too many. I'm hot on the trail of an almost-pristine Boano in Canada, and looking at a `58 250GT TdF Scaglietti re-body (performed in 1959 after the car was nearly destroyed in a garage fire). That's my favorite of all the 50s and 60s Ferraris.

wingtsun said:

I thinks that's how pretty much everything is now priced. Consider fuel, for example. I have a Jeep Wrangler JK two dor, a car you guys in the US will know all about. To fill it with diesel now costs me $135 USD. $135 USD for one single tank of diesel!!! Do you smoke? A pack of 20 over here now costs $13 USD. The price of everything has now gone beyond a joke. It's now cheaper to fly to the other side of Europe than it is to travel 100 miles up the road in your car.

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That's one reason I convert so many cars to ethanol, E85 is only $2.76 /gallon.

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My Falcon F7 is almost complete, today they called for my measurements for seating and pedal/shifter position, which will piss off my wife because that means she won't be able to drive it without a booster seat and leg/arm extensions. I thought they'd forgotten about me, but it turns out they've been having issues sourcing the CF panels, due to current demand far outstripping supply.



On the plus side, it's the first 2014 model and... it's a one-off that has two little intercooled Garrett turbos that are about the size of large bagels. I'd talked with them about it earlier in the year and they seemed dismissive, but later they came around and agreed to charge me more money (heh). Perhaps because of the ensuing 1000bhp supercar war, maybe (or just for more money). Anyway, from them will make 750hp at the flywheel, but it has a whole lot of headroom (est 900+) and it's open for tuning (and smashing my warranty to pieces, of course).

Auctions are not the place to figure out whether you want the item or not. You need to have a max price for each item, and under no circumstances do you exceed that price. If you are competing against the hidden reserve, then fine - either the reserve is higher than your preset max or it isn't. But if you can't walk away after making one bid, then you shouldn't have a bidder's number in your hand!

billybob_jcv said:

Auctions are not the place to figure out whether you want the item or not. You need to have a max price for each item, and under no circumstances do you exceed that price. If you are competing against the hidden reserve, then fine - either the reserve is higher than your preset max or it isn't. But if you can't walk away after making one bid, then you shouldn't have a bidder's number in your hand!

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Amen to that, but it is nice to get a lower price without the auctioneer beating you up, particularly in no/low reserve situations.

Auctioneers are agents for the seller, their purpose is to sell at as high a price as they possibly can. This increases their income from both the seller’s commission and the buyer’s premium. But more importantly, it enables them to compete with other auctioneers for future consignments. All auction reports, many of which are based on auctioneers’ press releases, headline the high prices, which benefit the seller and the auctioneer, not the buyer.

Look at show reports rather than auction reports, and you'll notice an enormous difference. Dealers promote the number of items that were sold, not the prices they achieved. Dealers are proud of how much they sold, not how much they sold it for. This is because dealers compete with other dealers for customers, unlike auctioneers who compete for sellers. Dealers win this competition by keeping their prices as low as they can and still make a profit. Dealers complain as bitterly as anyone about high prices, while auctioneers love them.

To sum up, competition among auctioneers drives prices up, competition among dealers drives prices down.

Do you think you get a better deal on purchasing a resto-mod from an auction, or by contacting the resto-mod garages directly and possibly buying cars before they send them to the auction? Or, is being the 3rd or 4th owner of a resto-mod typically an even better deal? I really don't see how a resto-mod garage that does the original work can make a profit - the amount of money and labor that goes into them rarely seems to equal or exceed the auction prices. I suppose it's one thing if the garage is building a car that was commissioned by an enthusiast - that's different because the guy has probably wanted the car for many years and will get enjoyment regardless of the cost. But if the garage is building cars on spec to make a profit - that seems like a losing business model - no?

The saying goes, "the modder is the loser", you never get out of it what you put in. While at times there is profit there, it has to be done a certain way with a buyer lined up, otherwise any mods depreciate quickly. For instance, that NSX I bought; $35k car, 40k worth of mods, he sold it for 40k. Another example is that `69 Camaro SS... that sucker has >$100k worth of hardware in it, we got it for 52k. It's nucking futs to drive, too, and I've not even tried the nitrous.

OK - you confirmed what I have always believed. You need to REALLY love the car if you are paying for the original restoration & mods. I'm positive my neighbor is in exactly that situation. He had wanted a tricked-out '49 Ford since he was 15 years old - so, now in his 60s, he had one built. It's a real beauty - inside, outside & under the hood. I have no doubt he spent a fortune on it - but darn it, if you've waited that long for something, and you can afford it, then I say investment value be d@mned - fulfill your dreams!!

Come fly with me, let's fly, let's fly away! I'm heading to New York, and what a PITA it was to book. The only effective way to do it without losing my mind was to go through AmEx, and they found an Air Canada flight leaving in less than 2 hours. I went to the airport, a concierge met me at the east entrance, he grabbed my bag and we zipped off in a cart to the terminal. A TSA girl met us there, she inspected my carry-on, I boarded the plane, the attendant walked me to a small compartment near the front (it's a room roughly 4'x6' in size with a big single reclining seat and a TV), and we took off in ~5 minutes. It was all a little surreal, but cool. :blink:

billybob_jcv said:

OK - you confirmed what I have always believed. You need to REALLY love the car if you are paying for the original restoration & mods. I'm positive my neighbor is in exactly that situation. He had wanted a tricked-out '49 Ford since he was 15 years old - so, now in his 60s, he had one built. It's a real beauty - inside, outside & under the hood. I have no doubt he spent a fortune on it - but darn it, if you've waited that long for something, and you can afford it, then I say investment value be d@mned - fulfill your dreams!!

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It's a thing of passion, not reason. Unless you're dealing with the restoration of a real classic, the money you put into fixing up a car will never be "profitable". That's okay though, not all things like that need to be investments.