High end DACs are appearing in big numbers - Page 2

@alcyst: You forgot at least a couple of high-end DACs that are considered very good - Berkeley and dCS. 

 

@Timestretch: While the law of diminishing results is in full force concerning most any DAC above $1.5k, there is a difference nonetheless. To the purist to whom it matters, it would be a no-brainer to spring for the better one. To others, the difference may be just as noticeable, contributing to the purchase decision, while to yet others it may be non-existing or too small to be justifiable.

 

Synergy between the DAC and the rest of the audio chain is also an important aspect, but an exceptional source is always welcome.

Note that this burgeoning of high end DACs is paralleled by an equally, if not greater, explosion of much cheaper all-in-one devices from docks to receivers. Even a modern low end receiver offers more functionality, like digital audio inputs, volume, headphone output and so on. So there must also be an accompanying breadth of new chips which are easy to implement. With all the selections of ladder, delta-sigma, whatever, any basement engineer can fabricate a perfectionist version of a converter. And there is a market demand for these idealized small production quantity products at outrageous prices. It's kind of nice to know that there's room for all the DACs, especially in cases where engineers transition from pro-audio and pure research into creating them.

 

What I don't like are the DACs which are designed specifically to introduce distortion, through tube output being the only usable option. With a DSP you can at least turn a filter on or off.

My skylla has tube output but it sounds very clear and I wouldnt even know tubes were in it if I couldnt see them or wasnt told they were there. Tube output is fine if it is implemented with care and correctly.

True, and I did not mean to imply that there aren't well built transparent tube output DACs - just that there are also DACs with tube outputs which have unacceptable levels of distortion by design.

 Totally agree, and here's another testament from Audio GD's 'Kingwa' courtesy of John Darko's website

 

 "The power supply is most important. Even applying the best DA chip and the best amp, if matched to a normal power supply, the total sound may still

 be average or sound musical, but can't be neutral and detailed. That is why it is easy to find hi-end grade gears maybe without the best chips or amp stages,

but with plenteous dedicated DC supply circuits"

 

I'm just wondering but would the PCM1798 be considered a high-end chip?
bcuz I got mine for $8

 

 

 

I agree. I don't claim any personal expertise, but in talking with knowledgeable people in the industry, the key to great sound with DACs has more to do about implementation than parts selection. Grounding is critical, as is galvanic isolation. The power supply is critical and the output stages are critical. After those aspects are treated with no-compromise implementation-which by itself will be quite expensive-versatility in terms of digital inputs without compromise is again quite expensive. And then any discussion of what constitutes "high-end" or "overpriced" or "low value" necessarily involves context. This hobby includes a surprising number of people with elaborate dedicated two channel systems. Someone is buying those YG Acoustics, MBL, Lamm Industries and other uber-expensive gear. For them (and others of us), the degree of incremental increased performance is well worth it. I don't have a mega-dollar two channel system but even in my mid-high tier system, the best digital I have heard still puts me a bit on edge compared to the more relaxed, natural sound I subjectively feel I get from my VPI Classic with Benz Glider SLO into a Violectric V600 phono stage. I would love to audition the Abbingdon Research DP-777 teamed up with a Bryston BDP-1. I suspect that for $7,000 or less, that match would be hard to beat for fatigue-free sound.

This is very true. For example, there are many DACs that currently use the popular ESS 9018 chip. However, In my experience, the differing output stages, power supplies, etc. cause very significant differences. For example, my Moon 750D very easily outperforms another 9018 based DAC the W4S Dac2. 

 

My friend, the marginal return curve (of $$ vs. sound quality) peaked and started turning negative a long, long time before $1.5K.

Edited by Mauricio - 3/23/12 at 7:27pm

I don't think so. First of all, I'm not sure where you get the idea that the price/performance curve "turns negative". That's never been my experience. Do I like every ultra expensive piece of equipment I've ever heard? Of course not. That doesn't mean you're paying more for less though, it just means you don't always pay more and get more. Second, what is "a long, long time"? Are you suggesting that $500 DACs represent the peak of noticeable performance? That's laughable.

 

You're using a Dac Magic Plus, right? Try a Calyx DAC with the CLPS, and then try an Overdrive, and tell me both are just big wastes of money.

 

Edited by DaveBSC - 3/23/12 at 2:00pm

Haha, I think he probably meant the gradient of the curve turns negative. I absolutely agree with your suggestion about the calyx. It is a phenomenal DAC for the price and probably my choice for DAC below $2000. 

 

You'll need to understand the fundamental concept of "marginal returns" before we can have a meaningful conversation.  Knowledge of basis micro-economic theory might help inform your system design choices and the most efficient allocation of funds.  I, myself, will refrain from buying a >$1,000 DAC fundamentally for the same reasons that I stay away from passive speakers & outboard amplifiers: inefficient allocation of funds.  Yes, I know.  I won't have bragging rights, and I won't be admitted into your elite clique of connoisseurs and congnoscenti.  That's ok.

 

Elitism and fetishism notwithstanding, my position and the economics behind it still hold whether I own an Audiotrak Cube, a Cambridge Audio DacMagic Plus or an Antelope Zodiac+.  There may be minute differences between the Antelope and my DacMagic Plus, but most people here, including myself, don't have the amplification/speakers to resolve those differences.  It's rather like the ostentatious elites of Third-World countries that buy Ferrari and Lamborghini, but their country doesn't have any decent roads to even get to 100 km/hour.  Good luck to you.

 

Edited by Mauricio - 3/23/12 at 8:25pm

ECON 101 FTW!

 

:D. Haha, I think most of the manufacturers would rather us head-fier's not consider econs if not, our propensity to spend will probably drop :)

 

@Mauricio:

I would have to respectfully disagree with your take on expensive gear. To most owners of such, it's not about elitism nor bragging rights; rather, about seeking the last level of detail and perfection, and affording to do something about it - namely, purchasing. After all, economy principles would dictate we all drove cheap cars, yet there's no shortage of Mercedes vehicles on roads.

In my case I noticed a very distinct improvement between W4S DAC-2 and another one costing about four times as much. I noticed said difference while I wasn't even paying much attention - that DAC was not something I was considering at that time.

And about being able to have a meaningful conversation, a bout of perceived condescension never helps promote such.