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post #61 of 233
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Edited by vid - 6/25/12 at 3:51pm
post #62 of 233

If you are only interested in the frequency response (from a sine sweep it is also possible to determine distortion), then it is better to use a maximum length sequence as the source signal. Also, you may want to use a real microphone instead of a headphone for recording, a small electret capsule would be suitable for this purpose.

 

post #63 of 233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stv014 View Post

If you are only interested in the frequency response (from a sine sweep it is also possible to determine distortion), then it is better to use a maximum length sequence as the source signal.

 

Thanks for the suggestions!


Edited by vid - 6/25/12 at 3:52pm
post #64 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by vid View Post

Any free software for MLS?


I do not know if there are any easy to use free applications for this purpose, I can create them with a simple C program I wrote.

 

post #65 of 233
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Edited by vid - 6/25/12 at 3:51pm
post #66 of 233
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Originally Posted by vid View Post

I'm a little bit comfortable with C/C++, but have never done anything audio-related. Maybe I'll look into it at some point; the MLS thing sounds useful.

 

Well, if you are interested, I can post the program, and a compiled version of it if needed. It only outputs raw PCM data, though. It can also resample the sequence to a power of two length, which I find useful for real time FFT analysis.

 

post #67 of 233
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Edited by vid - 6/25/12 at 3:51pm
post #68 of 233
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Originally Posted by vid View Post

If you don't mind giving out some source code, I'd be delighted. There's no guarantee that I'll actually understand the program, though, but I can try.

 

It is available here. The program is a simple command line application that takes two or three arguments, in this order: the output file name, the polynomial (in binary format), and an optional "1" to enable resampling to a power of two size. The package also includes a text file containing polynomials for lengths ranging from 13 to 24 bits. Some examples:

  .\mls.exe mls17.pcm 10010000000000000

  .\mls.exe mlsi17.pcm 10000000000000100

  .\mls.exe mls14.pcm 10000010100001 1

The first of these creates a 17-bit sequence (131071 samples). The second one creates a reverse version of the same sequence (this is done by reversing the order of bits after the initial '1'). The reverse sequence is needed for extracting the impulse response: you play the original sequence looped a few times, record it, and then convolve the result with the reverse sequence (the amplitude will need to be adjusted by a factor inversely proportional to the sequence length to avoid clipping). The third example creates a 14-bit sequence resampled to a length of 16384 samples; I use this type of sequence for real time testing (by playing it looped, and displaying the spectrum with Visual Analyser, using the same FFT size as the length of the sequence and the "Smoothing windows" set to "None").

The first two examples write 16-bit signed linear PCM data with no header, in LSB-first byte order. The third example writes 32-bit floats in native byte order, also without a header.

It is important to make the recording of the sequences sample accurate, otherwise the extracted impulse responses will be noisy. Therefore, it is best to use the same sound card for recording as for playback, at the same sample rate. Also try to make sure that the response does not change much during the test (e.g. due to moving the microphone or headphones). Keeping distortion reasonably low also improves the accuracy of the results. The noise floor can be reduced by increasing the length of the sequence used.

The implementation of the program is not very elegant, efficient, or user friendly, but perhaps it can be useful.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid View Post
I'll look around for ways of getting a cheap and relatively flat microphone (or something that can act like one). I guess I could get an electret capsule, or whichever it was, but the problem is, I can't solder. It would have to be something wired and ready for use.

 

There are omnidirectional electret measurement microphones available for as low as about $50, for example the Behringer ECM8000, but probably there are other better suited ones. Note that the electronics of the microphones often need relatively large phantom voltage (in the range 12 to 48 Volts), have an XLR connector, and output a low signal level, so using them with a simple PC sound card without a pre-amplifier can be tricky. For headphone measurements, some DIY work may also be necessary if the microphone is too bulky (the capsule itself often has a size of only a few millimeters).

You may be more likely to have success with small electret microphones made specifically for use with PCs (for gaming etc.), these may not have as good frequency response (lacking the bass extension, for example) or low distortion, but are much easier to use with just a sound card, and could still be an improvement over a microphone made from a headphone driver.

 


Edited by stv014 - 1/30/12 at 2:26am
post #69 of 233
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Thanks for the source and instructions!


Edited by vid - 6/25/12 at 3:51pm
post #70 of 233
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Edited by vid - 6/25/12 at 3:52pm
post #71 of 233
Quote:

Originally Posted by vid View Post

 

Now, this is the part I don't quite understand: I was told to "convolve" the recording with the reverse of the MLS sequence, but I've no idea how one goes about convolving. What I did was load up HOLMImpulse, specify the measurement signal as "Square Noise" and import the recording along with the reversed MLS as the signal. Not sure if this is correct, but please set me right if not.

 

I did not test it, but according to the documentation of HOLMImpulse, it is possible to import a "signal and recording", that is, the original sample and what was recorded with the microphone, and it will calculate the impulse response from that. Also, if you upload the recorded WAV file, I can extract the impulse responses from that.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by vid View Post

 

I believe my line roughly follows his up to 4 kHz, but the strange peak on mine at 4-5 kHz is a bit puzzling. Guesses, anyone? The rest of the spectrum isn't exactly like his, but roughly follows kinda the same path.

 

It is very difficult to measure the frequency response above a few kHz accurately, so differences like that with simple equipment are not surprising. For example, this graph is an attempt to measure the frequency response of a DT770 Pro with an "ear bud" made of a small measurement microphone, and the part above about 5 kHz is basically useless, and already from ~2 kHz it gets less accurate.

 


Edited by stv014 - 2/2/12 at 2:48am
post #72 of 233
Quote:
Originally Posted by lejaz View Post

Same as the DF. They don't really give you any 'fun' factor....they're very revealing and show you all the flaws in the recordings and mp3 conversion.....but the great clarity is also one of their strengths. Their main shortcoming(for me) is the bass. For those who find the k70X light in the bass, they'll find the same for the DF. The 702 is actually a little warmer, less clinical. 



i must be the only one without bass issues with my 240DF? the top-end can be bit bright with lot of modern stuff but very smooth sounding. they are not nearly as bright as my sextetts or have the quantity of bass like my sextetts do. my sextetts can give me a headach with it's hard-hitting slam on the bass impact. i find the bass really perfect on the 240DF. presents the impact way it is and has very good sub-bass extension for an all-rounder. i find my 240DF perfect all-rounder even for mainstream hip-hop and electronic music. i found no issues with them whatsoever.

if anything i find the 240Df a perfect indication what true speaker like ''flat'' bass extension is cause even speakers with flat bass won't exaggerate the impact feeling and present it the way it is in a dead room(somewhat like an anechoic chamber in a way) and you'll see how lot of modern stuff is just boosted low bass to mid-bass(around 50hz to 250hz is slightly boosted most likely) to simulate an ''impact'' to make up for bad dynamics or just done to be ''fun'' sounding but don't see how since boosted bass gives me a headach a lot. usually ''real'' impact/chest thump happens around 50hz with kick-drums if the dynamics is still there and not sucked out by modern day compression. compression always screws up everything since lot of people(even professionals) don't know how to compress correctly.

try running the DF's on balanced line-outs or pre-outs instead of the headphone jack on the interfaces if it has option for +4dbu/-10db settings for you with a 1/4'' female TRS to dual male 1/4'' TRS jacks and should power the 240DF much better and might bring the deeper bass out more since balanced outputs feed up to 4v so it should be a good start. also will allow more dynamics from the 240DF cause first thing i notice if the 240DF has lack of power is the dynamics is completely sucked out and not there while making everything sound like it been under heavy dynamic compression.
post #73 of 233

The DF for hip hop? confused_face(1).gif If we ever get to meet up in person, I'll let you listen to the 580. Going head to head with the 580 bass, the DF definitely loses out. I've been told by folks who work in professional recording studios, that the hd580/600 is close to 'flat'/neutral. If that's true, then the DF and the 702 bass are both on the lean side of 'neutral'.  Of course it's possibly something to do with the amp, though I'm not totally convinced of that. Never thought of driving them out of the 1/8 stereo line out jack of the 0404....but there's not the option you mention. BTW, you're not the only forum  member with no bass issues with the DF. There's another forum member who tells me the same....that I'm not giving them proper amping. I tend to think it's, at least in part, the nature of the phone itself. Lots of people also claim the k70X has weak bass (a few others claim it's close to perfect). I've heard both phones, and the mid bass impact is about equivalent on the DF and 702. The 580(and 600 I think since the drivers are the same) is a different story.. Much more engaging to listen to out of my set up. I used to be a real DF fanboy, but the DF isn't getting much head time here since getting the 580. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RexAeterna View Post


i must be the only one without bass issues with my 240DF? the top-end can be bit bright with lot of modern stuff but very smooth sounding. they are not nearly as bright as my sextetts or have the quantity of bass like my sextetts do. my sextetts can give me a headach with it's hard-hitting slam on the bass impact. i find the bass really perfect on the 240DF. presents the impact way it is and has very good sub-bass extension for an all-rounder. i find my 240DF perfect all-rounder even for mainstream hip-hop and electronic music. i found no issues with them whatsoever.
if anything i find the 240Df a perfect indication what true speaker like ''flat'' bass extension is cause even speakers with flat bass won't exaggerate the impact feeling and present it the way it is in a dead room(somewhat like an anechoic chamber in a way) and you'll see how lot of modern stuff is just boosted low bass to mid-bass(around 50hz to 250hz is slightly boosted most likely) to simulate an ''impact'' to make up for bad dynamics or just done to be ''fun'' sounding but don't see how since boosted bass gives me a headach a lot. usually ''real'' impact/chest thump happens around 50hz with kick-drums if the dynamics is still there and not sucked out by modern day compression. compression always screws up everything since lot of people(even professionals) don't know how to compress correctly.
try running the DF's on balanced line-outs or pre-outs instead of the headphone jack on the interfaces if it has option for +4dbu/-10db settings for you with a 1/4'' female TRS to dual male 1/4'' TRS jacks and should power the 240DF much better and might bring the deeper bass out more since balanced outputs feed up to 4v so it should be a good start. also will allow more dynamics from the 240DF cause first thing i notice if the 240DF has lack of power is the dynamics is completely sucked out and not there while making everything sound like it been under heavy dynamic compression.


 

 

post #74 of 233
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Edited by vid - 6/25/12 at 3:52pm
post #75 of 233
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Originally Posted by vid View Post

 

I'll play around with HOLM; apparently it doesn't much matter whether you use the inverse or the original for the signal, as the resulting graph is more or less identical.

 

It does not seem to be quite right, though, as the graphs should not be so noisy with a 20-bit sequence, if the IR is correctly extracted.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vid View Post

 

What sort of a mic setup was used for that 770 measurement? What about HRTF?

 

It was tested while actually wearing the headphones, using an "ear bud" microphone which is basically just a small (1/4") capsule in some foam, similarly to the method someone used in this thread. It was not meant to be reliable in the high frequency range (that is not easy to achieve even with a dummy head, and the presence of the microphone also noticeably affects the treble response), and the measurement is "raw", without any correction. HRTFs are measured at a different position and are more affected by the ear canal, so the equalization curve you have shown cannot be applied to this graph. I could test the treble separately without wearing the headphones - this obviously does not give an accurate frequency response either, but it shows how well the treble is extended, and if there are any obvious driver resonances.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vid View Post

 

I'm not exactly sure yet how the HRTF thing works, but from what I gather (could be quite wrong), it's basically an EQ that gets applied to the recording to account for the way the upper torso of a listener would fling the sound around. I have a feeling it's not quite this simple, but that the best I've been able to grasp for now.

 

It is mostly due to the outer ear, the pinna and the ear canal affecting the frequency response. But to equalize the effects of these, first you need to have them correctly reproduced in the test, i.e. ideally use a dummy head.

 

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