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Audio gd NFB-2 vs Squeezebox Touch internal Dac

post #1 of 10
10/30/11 at 12:54am
Thread Starter 
Ok, so bought the audio gd NFB-2 in the hope that I would get an audible improvement in the sound from my Squeezebox Touch (SB). I decided to run a blind ABX test with a friend to see if we could pick the difference in sound.

The setup was: Squeezebox coax digital out into audio gd NFB-2, analogue outs to an attenuator and then to an ABX unit. The attenuator was necessary since the output levels on the gd are higher. The analogue outs from the SB were also fed into the ABX unit. The ABX unit had a function to randomize what the next source was for X. This output from the ABX unit was fed into a yamaha rs-700 and then into a pair of B&W 685s.

With the levels matched, before we even started in earnest, just switching beetween the sources demonstrated that it was obvious that there was no perceptible difference. We continued with the ABX test and in the first 10 "guesses" I managed to get.... 5 correct... Hmmm...

The bottom line was that we could not distinguish the difference between the two, let alone decide which one was better.
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post #2 of 10
10/30/11 at 1:04am

interesting results , but many will not be agree ^^ abx or not :D you could be 2-100 , some will only trust their hears ^^ .

 

some will argue with methodoly , like we don't know if you use FLAC , MP3 or watever , is the atenuator impact free on sound etc ...

 

For me i didn't have to do abx test beetween my sptifire MK2 and NFB-2 difference was obvious ... i don't have the same setup at all. Same for my previous soundcards etc .

 

And your setup is better , for loudspeacker i only have JBL Control 5 + an late 80 luxman LV91 as Amp :p . (but it cost me nothing :D and i am satisfied with it , furthemore i mostly use headphones) (but headphones or loudspeacker i can tell easely if it's my NFB-2 or other device like my old sptifire mk2 or a internal sound card etc) . 

 

For matching level i used a Matrix M-stage has preamp and now a audio GD C2.1 .(both headphones amps) If i needed ABX i would ask someone to switch on the source knob in my old matrix m-stage or C2.1 but it was not needed .

 

But some will say that they hear difference beetween USB/COax/Optical on my NFB-2 i don't ... But i believe that some people can hear diffrences beetween USB/coax/optical (on my Sptifire i could , not on my NFB-2) ...


Edited by HaVoC-28 - 10/30/11 at 1:22am
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post #3 of 10
10/30/11 at 4:14pm

interesting.  what filter were you using in the nfb?  you might be able to hear a difference between the 2x and other filters (that looks like it will attenuate audible frequencies).  since that's not possible with abx, you could select that filter and see if you can hear a difference between the touch and the nfb.

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post #4 of 10
10/31/11 at 1:43am
Thread Starter 

The sources were mostly FLAC, we tested a variety of tracks including some sampled at 24 Bit, 48 kHz... 

 

The filter setting was on 2X oversampling, linear phase "brickwall" filter to begin with, I also tried the 8X oversampling, minimum phase apodising filter with the same result. 

 

I plan on measuring the response of both DACs, but my feeling is that even if one of the DACs outperforms the other on paper, your system is still only as good as the weakest link... the human ear in this case... I believe that there is no sense in spending money on a system that outperforms your auditory system. It's a testament to how good modern day electronics are.

 

I think that the sound from the SB Touch is fantastic and I would urge others looking to improve the sound to spend their money on speakers, or headphones. 

 

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post #5 of 10
10/31/11 at 3:08pm

Hi i used the Touch analog while waiting for my NFB-2 to arrive. The Touch was bearable but fatiguing after a while, the harshness would only allow me to listen for short periods.

 

NFB-2 didnt arrive soon enough, absolute smoothness and no more fatigue. Huge decernable difference in musicality and resolution.

 

Something must be wrong in your setup, you need a better digital cable or different power cord on the NFB-2 because it should be no contest.

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post #6 of 10
10/31/11 at 3:34pm

For me the sound from Squeezebox Touch built-in DAC has two big disavantages:

1. Very flat sound (no depth)

2. Lean sound (little body/weight to the sound).

 

Although I haven't compared Touch to Audio gd, I noticed that even my iPOD (5.5G) provides better sound in the two above-mentioned areas.

Other than the two disadvantages, the Touch sound is quite good. However the two are very important to me so I don't like listening from Squeezebox Touch analog outs.

 

I suppose you can't hear the difference because you don't mind the two sound characteristics OR Audio gd also provides flat and lean sound OR your speakers/headphones are not revealing enough.

 

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post #7 of 10
10/31/11 at 6:57pm
Thread Starter 

Cheers for the interesting replies... its funny, I find that our "musical memory" is pretty poor in general and that the power of suggestion can easily influence subjective opinion. I believe the placebo effect in hi-fi is real. 

 

Its my opinion that there is no other credible way of comparing two hi-fi components than in a proper blind ABX test. All other components should be kept the same (I concede the attenuator which I used does not meet this criteria but I am confident it does not colour the sound)  and the levels must be matched.

 

I'm a noise and vibration engineer, so I believe in objective measurements as well, if you can't measure a difference, there is no difference. I believe high end cables are one of the biggest lies in the industry, others agree, see "the ten biggest lies in audio" in this article: http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_26_r.pdf

 

Also, note the "listening test lie".

 

The other side, is that even if you measure a difference, if that difference is outside of what humans can perceive, why waste your money? To test that perception we come back to the ABX test.

 

I know others will disagree. But I wanted to let others who were investigating "upgrading" their SB know that on my system, a friend and I could not distinguish any audible difference between these two DACs. The concept of which was "better" was never considered, just the simple question, can you hear any difference. I'm simply providing these people with another opinion to consider before they... waste their money :).    

 

I still believe that if you want significant improvements in sound you should spend your money on the speakers/headphones.

 

Oh and as to the SB being flat... yeah, it has a nice flat frequency response, see:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/logitech-squeezebox-touch-network-music-player-measurements

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by Doubles - 10/31/11 at 7:06pm
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post #8 of 10
11/1/11 at 5:16am

Thats cool, its obvious your system isnt resolving enough to decern the differences between the two. No problem, sell the dac and enjoy your Touch, i love mine but i could never go back to its analog out. smile.gif

 

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post #9 of 10
11/15/11 at 12:48am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick77 View Post

Thats cool, its obvious your system isnt resolving enough to decern the differences between the two. No problem, sell the dac and enjoy your Touch, i love mine but i could never go back to its analog out. smile.gif

 


Hahaha, of course... However, I could equally contest that there is "obviously" something wrong with your setup, or perhaps there's something wrong with your hearing... But if you enjoy your system, that's the important point. I'm just trying to save others money.
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post #10 of 10
11/16/11 at 6:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick77 View Post


Something must be wrong in your setup, you need a better digital cable or different power cord on the NFB-2 because it should be no contest


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick77 View Post

Thats cool, its obvious your system isnt resolving enough to decern the differences between the two. No problem, sell the dac and enjoy your Touch, i love mine but i could never go back to its analog out. smile.gif

 


 

Very typical response. These type of responses are really getting old here. So many times when we get the "I abx the two and there's no difference" type threads someone is alway going to say it's your gear, your cables, or your hearing. Congrats to the op, you just saved yourself some money. Enjoy your set up and ignore responses such as this.

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