I'm not sure I understand why you and Hawaiibadboy try your distortion tests.
I can understand going all the way with the EQ, but at listening levels. But turning a vintage amplifier all the way up like that? Why? What's the point? Also, you really should try listening to that vintage amplifier without the FiiO E11, as it may just be better sounding as well.
I'm a fan of car audio subwoofers. The obnoxious kind you feel from blocks away. I'm also a fan of rock concert loudspeakers. This experience, as you know, is not purely auditory as it involves full body bone conduction. Using headphones is already a compromise to the tactile aspect of the maximum bass experience; however, any pair of headphones that could sustain low frequencies at normal rock concert loud levels would be a forgivable alternative to the real thing. In my search for basshead in-ears, I have found only one series that could reproduce low frequencies at front-row rock concert levels: the Sennheiser CX series, specifically the now discontinued CX500 (same as CX400). It is not so much a distortion test to me as it is an absolute minimum requirement. Almost all of the headphones I had auditioned distorted the low frequencies before reaching my required loudness level, and none of the full-size cans I tried even reached half the bass level I needed, which made me believe--incorrectly--that only in-ears have the technology to reproduce lower frequencies efficiently.
But here steps in
@Hawaiibadboy, the eternal rebel, the first freethinker and the emancipator of worlds. He makes man ashamed of his bestial ignorance and obedience; he emancipates him, stamps upon his brow the seal of liberty and humanity, in urging him to disobey and eat of the fruit of knowledge. I actually typed a quote about Satan, but anyway, Hawaii suddenly barges in on here, listens earnestly to everyone's recommendations, diligently tests 200-250 pairs in Denki shops in Japan, and screams BS at everybody. Hawaii was searching for one thing: the loudest and deepest bass cans. It is such a straightforward need, which can be objectively measured with a straightforward test: the pair that can sustain low frequencies at the highest volume, without distortion, wins. In his initial test, the JVC HA-MR77X won.
I've never seen anyone else as devoid of pretense as Hawaii in the years I lurked reading headphone reviews. I bought the MR77X, and they were the first full-size headphones that satisfied my insane bass cravings.
Having confirmed Hawaii's legitimacy, I am now a proud owner of the JVC HA-SZ2000 as well.
I wanna know my headroom. I may not go there often but I do not want to be limited by the driver. I want to be limited by my ears. I don't wanna find out it's one and not the other down the road. I wanna know now. Before I pay. Just my preference.
Quality is subjective .....Bass pushing your head and vibrating your skull and upper neck is objective.
Damn straight.
There is a small factor regarding the threshold of loudness/pain, where it shifts depending on motivation or expectation. Although according to your results, this doesn't even matter because most of the headphones distorted so soon.
Tried the JVC - SZ2000 in my local Jaben a couple days ago. Sorry Hawaii, I didn't like them at all. Mids were far too recessed for my liking and personally, I didn't find the bass that great when compared to my Q40 on my 627 MICRO.
This would be more helpful if you posted the exact files you were playing, just as
@Subere obliged when comparing the SZ to the XB700.
This is what Subere posted in the SZ2000 thread:
I get the sub-bass there, just no punch. I really like this track for sub-bass:
Here are some tracks that really punch on my XB700s, but are flat on my SZ2000s:
At first I confirmed that
Feed Me - Strange Behaviour (ft. Tasha Baxter) was flat, but that was just the intro. Subere was referring to the drop at 1:08. To me, with my maximum bass extreme setup, that drop was nothing near "flat." Although there is no way for me to compare with the Sony XB700. Also, more importantly, Subere was listening with no EQ straight from a soundcard (ALC892) and only at normal volume. This is not even remotely at the level Hawaii and I want our bass. Using a similar soundcard (ALC889), I need an amp to be satisfied with the bass volume, and I have yet to confirm if the SZ is the one distorting or my soundcard clipping the lower frequencies.
I notice one big conflict here, HBB is talking about heavily boosted bass + loud volume usage and BucketInABucket is talking about EQ-less non bass boosted usage and probably not near as loud levels as HBB.
You can't compare both those usage scenarios to each other and neither is HBB's scenario nor BucketInABucket more "correct" or "deciding", that's a question of personal taste and if one doesn't like boosting bass or listen loud he doesn't have to compare it that way either. I personally like boosting the bass using digiZoid ZO amp but I don't like listening loud for example, I use the constant same volume setting all the time to adapt to a lower vol listening (if I never push up the volume then my brain doesn't lust for it either).
Besides the different listening habits/scenarios, then we have another important aspect to think about, different genres provide very different kinds of bass. As total opposite to HBB's hip-hop I will show a hardstyle example with a particularly well fitting beat that is like the polar-opposite of what hip-hop beats are like. Q40 in particular does extremely well with hardstyle kicks (you call the beats as "kicks" in hardstyle). It provides a very satisfying impact/hit, it's not so much about audible bass in hardstyle, it's more about the impact/punch. It's fast but hard-hitting, fast-decaying with lots of "texture" you can call it as there's mids/highs that are mixed INTO the beat itself and it's also "distorted" in various ways to give it an interesting sound.
Here's an example:
Here's the kind of bass that I'm more into for example and Q40 hit so hard with this kind of bass. I'm just using this as an example that the fact that people can like different kinds of things in bass, for me it's the "impact", the slam or whatever that is satisfying, Q40 do that well in relative to the amount bass quantity it packs and also provides good overall sound quality when bass put aside.
I'm a fan of your reviews @RPGWiZaRD, especially your posts regarding PC soundcards. This is just a clarification, although I know you already know this:
Hip-hop beats are as diverse as genres are diverse, and with music's unending evolution, genres breed new forms of music. And Hawaii's taste in rap and hip-hop isn't confined to the prototype hip-hop beat:
The biggest question I had for about 2 weeks. How on earth are the 77's not being pushed by J.V.C?
My conclusions:
1. The audiophile crowd in Japan is quite enamored with name branding. Beats Pro are widely considered by some of the biggest audiophile headphone shops as being "subarashi" (wonderful) The shops top seller rankings reflect this. I have friends who are DJ's and they have no comment about Beats (meaning they are over pushed and priced) They use Sony mostly for DJ gigs. They are pro's though (The DJ's i mean)
Most view Japan as an audiophile /otaku dreamland and it is but the % of Audiophiles..
being folks who seek pure sonic signatures is less than the % in America. The Beats hate is far far stronger back in America than over here. That doesn't mesh with the image of Japan by most western audiophiles. If it's popular they want one. The West following the East in terms of Hi-Fidelity is backwards. They are smitten with the West. Beats are expensive and well promoted and endorsed and that assures they are popular here. Folks look at FOSTEX and some other high end models in awe the way Japanese look at Euro hi end manufacturers. The Bang & Olufsen new series is booming on the J net and blogs. They are fashionable, expensive and made in Europe. Nuff said (for the great great majority which are not audiophiles)
So #1. They are smitten with outside Hi fi (the grass is always greener in the other yard mentality)
2. The most popular Japanese music is J-Pop. By a very very wide margin. It emphasizes highs...really really sparkly highs. EDM and Club have a bigger market than Hip Hop so there are few artists who could/would endorse a bass-centric Japanese made cans. A great many Japanese may not even know too many folks from that niche' besides DJ Kaori.
3. Market...this may be the real #1 . Japan lost the DAP market to Apple. The % of portable music devices used in 1990 were about 80% Japanese made and now 25 years later a paradigm shift has happened. They are on the other side. They also lost ground in flat panel manufacturing to the point where samsung panels now sit in some Sony Bravias.
A Japanese meeting is not really a meeting but a series of announcements with a tatemae question of "is there any question"......nobody is expected to actually ask a question.
J.V.C. is
Victor Company of Japan, Ltd (日本ビクター株式会社
Nippon Bikutā Kabushiki-gaisha),
The Bass market is not seen as one they can crack. Sony is seen as the J audio maker with bass headphone pedigree as well as pioneer but J.V.C is seen and may see itself as more of a home audio maker. Truth is that market is tapped in their mind and nobody will choose a J.V.C over an imported bass can where they
think it ...bass-centric was invented.
I have students who work at Sony, Hitachi and Pioneer affiliates. They are all very maji mei (serious) and short focus (next financial quarter) because Japan has been through a generation of economic stagnation. This all sounds far from headphone talk but it's related.
J.V.C has a deeper pedigree than most anyone as they helped create the sonic backdrop for the birth of Rap and Hip-hop....They lost their mojo....which is why most Japanese have iphones and Beats not Walkmen.
I bought my JVC boombox because it looked like a tank and sounds like one too
I bought the JVC XX's because they (the 55's) blew me away and caused me to give my Beats to my GF and she listens to Glee episodes on HULU.
I pushed them to the edge because they were cheap and fun and they had a bigger brother. That bigger brother is an animal. A very slept on under the radar beast. There are 2 identical named 57mm XX's but one is "new version" and one is not. get the "new version".
Europe has a sound listening law for headphone output. These cans I assure you violate that law when amped. They are waiting for you. Get em. Tune and amp them and wait for a friend with Beats or V-moda or any other Bass-centric cans and then pounce. Swallow them. Make them feel like I did when i looked at the price on the 55's v.s. my Beats studio's and Pro's. I felt like a moron. The 77's? Get a picture of their face.
Call it
"Audio Butt hurt"
These are 5-6 songs it got tuned too. i used them for very slight adjustments on the bass hit. If you like this kind of hit your gonna fall in love.
Impact and extension
Sonic impact (upper mid techno grind hit follows a super bass hit)
long throw hit from 35-80Hz
How low do they go?? (this one will show you the truth when amped
)
I can say that these tracks and the one in my sig along with Geto Boys "Assassins" hit harder with the 77's than anything your friends have. If you EVER hear a harder slam on cans you come back here and tell me...I'd LOVE to know what that is? As of March 1st 2014 it don't exist.
LL would be a great spokeman for these .
I like it loud
I'm the man with a box that can rock the crowd
Walkin' down the street, to the hardcore beat
While my JVC vibrates the concrete
"I Can't Live Without My Radio" LL Cool J (1985)
There is also a scientific discussion regarding the perception of subwoofer bass discussed by engineers in this
thread. The general consensus is that, room modes aside (the importance of earpad acoustics and so on), "It sounds the same if EQ'd the same." The standing hypothesis is that the subjective qualities often used to describe bass such as "fast," "slow," "tight," and so on, are more easily explained by magnitude response "based on gain, Q, and frequency of each resonance."
The SZ is woeful for EDM, there's not enough low bass in most of the music to satisfy you. I listen to a lot of trance and most of that type of music is made using a synth so you need more mid bass impact and upper mids. Also very important is for the bass not to bleed into the mids for this music. All this the SZ does not do well at. Where the SZ does well in is the low bass impact, and as HBB says it is crazy bass. It actually makes my TH600 sound like treble head cans when I put it on straight after the SZ.
As I shared in my previous paragraph, "[Bass reproduction] sounds the same if EQ'd the same." But accurate EQing is no easy feat, for according to
@PiccoloNamek's famous
EQ tutorial, and this is a second-hand quote, "'an acoustic impedance mismatch between transducer, ear canal, and eardrum' is causing a resonance that results in a large peak at 7.5kHz, coloring the sound." However, in my real-world applications, you can approximate equivalent sound signatures by ear with a parametric EQ like Equalizer APO. It's easy to raise the upper bass (often described as "bloated," but apparently so many are a fan of this kind of bass; Google "XB700" + "bloated") with EQ. As stated, it is possible and demonstrable to match frequency responses. However, if a pair of headphones distorts at a certain intensity, there is no helping it. It becomes an impossibility. It becomes a concrete limit.
I have a life-long passion for metal music, and experiencing the sound of
this bass playing three hundred beats per minute in a death metal track is like plunging deep into the earth only to find you're ascending to the other side.
If you lend me your best pair and it can't give me a transcendental experience with the following tracks, I will throw your headphones back at your face (lightly, as a joke, I'm not violent):
Here is a bonus Denpa songu if you think dance music is mostly bloated bass:
