monoethylene said:

The thread came down to ignorance..
 

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feel free to educate me. I've never dealt with such a low peaked roof before. There should be a lot more discussion of room treatments around here.

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bigshot said:

There should be a lot more discussion of room treatments around here.

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Finally a true statement.
 
I've seen a guy spend over $100K on his sound system only to have it in a totally untreated room with big sliding doors.  Talk about crazy

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dynobot said:

All Dacs sound the same = Implementation does not matter.
 
If implementation mattered then all Dacs would sound different.
 
Can't have it both ways....
 
Bigshot and his buddy are starting to make themselves look foolish..

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tmars78 said:

Did you even bother reading what he wrote? And if you did, did you comprehend it? You're nothing more than a troll at this point.  He said they have to be implemented right for them to sound good, and then goes on to say even cheap players do a good job at implementing chips. Which to me sounds like since they both do it right, they sound the same. 

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I'm usually pretty long winded, but explanations don't get much more concise than that.
 

 
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dynobot said:

 
If you have a look inside many of todays Dacs the implementation is all different.  Audio-gd uses a totally different implementation than Cambridge audio DacMagic....and guess what??  They sound different!!!
 
Valab implements their Dac design different than Wavelength audio....Do you think both Dacs sound the same??? $4K plus Dac vs a $200 Valab ???
 
In my paragraph I did say competent modern DACs not flawed designs, all bets are off for stuff like this.....
http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/378459/valab-dac-first-impressions/1185#post_5483734
 
http://www.stereophile.com/content/wavelength-cosecant-v3-usb-digitalanalog-converter-measurements
 
but what emprical evidence do you have that there is **any kind** of correlation between price and verifiable "quality"  - the $350 Marantz CD5004 is superior in most departments to a vast number of boutique designs
 
http://www.stereophile.com/content/marantz-cd5004-cd-player-marantz-cd5004-cd-player-measurements
 
...The $6000 McIntosh MS750 Music server is verifiably a piece of junk !
 
http://www.stereophile.com/content/mcintosh-ms750-music-server-measurements
 
and here is a $43K Combo that is decidedly underwhelming...
 
http://www.stereophile.com/content/zanden-5000-mkivsignature-da-converter-2000-premium-cd-transport-measurements
 
 
 
 
 

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dynobot said:

I use the Live End / Dead End method for room treatments. 
 
Indeed behind each side wall are bass traps.
 
Other unseen features include....Furutech outlets and a dedicated circuit.
 
 

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i still have to make some bass traps myself. got yourself a very nice listening area. i personally used what i could grab for my room. i use carpet for my walls,floor and ceiling. might not be the best in designer point of view but i notice big difference in a more accurate soundstage,imagery,midrange and high frequencies. i can even hear a big difference in my own voice when comparing room to room in my house. i still need to buy some fiber glass and make some little bass traps for myself pretty soon. i do really like your listening set-up. have you tried toe-ing in your speakers more? lot of people don't know but when looking for speakers your room is more important then the speaker you buy cause your room is what causes major imbalance in frequency response for on and off axis.

Not sure what to make of this thread. 
 
2 of us compared my Stello DA100, level balanced, to a Benchmark 1 at one of the NY meets and we couldn't reliably tell the difference. 
 
I compared the same Stello to a Neko dac which I had on a 30 day trial basis.  Once level balanced I couldn't tell them apart.  I returned the Neko.
 
My 2 cents:
 
Do all opamps sound the same?  If so all the SS amps that use them sound the same.
 
My Stello dac has a 192 upsampling switch that I never use.  It changes the sound signature and the sound-stage of the dac.... Now what?
 
USG

Buy the cheapest DAC you can find for which you can't reliably tell a difference, sell your current DAC, and be happy.

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upstateguy said:

Do all opamps sound the same?  If so all the SS amps that use them sound the same.
 
My Stello dac has a 192 upsampling switch that I never use.  It changes the sound signature and the sound-stage of the dac.... Now what?
 
USG

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I've tried several opamps for my soundcard. They do change the sound signature, and it's more noticeable than tubes in my experience. 
 

I'm afraid anecdotes just don't cut it. Tubes at least have big measurable things that they do to the sound, whereas what an opamp does to the sound seems to coincide with whatever the user expects - even when the opamp is considerably worse than the one they are replacing - such as AudioGd's discrete opamps, which measure horribly - which is (sarcasm alert) of course because they design by ear, and pursue musicality over numbers, and the specs aren't everything and on and on until you wonder whether some people live in a parallel world where the only individuals that always speak truth are salesmen.

I'm confuzzled....
 
All Dacs sound the same except:
 
Dacs with opamps [because opamps sound different]
Dacs with tubes [because tubes sound different]
 
Looks like we are slowing coming to the realization that All Dacs sound different...LOL.

Not really. One person has made an unsubstantiated comment that opamps affect sound - assuming the opamps both measure well and are implemented correctly, they will not.
A DAC with a tube is a deliberate colouration of the sound. Tubes are uncommon in DACs and for good reason - the best thing to do with your raw audio is not add tonnes of harmonic distortion and roll off the high frequencies. That's what tube amps are for
 
DACs, unlike amps, are always meant to provide a neutral window into the sound. AFAIK, there isn't a huge amount of debate on this matter. Any competently designed DAC that measures above a certain level will sound just like any other DAC. If you shove a tube in it, it's no longer a competently designed DAC IMO. If the designer places an opamp in his circuit that measures abominably or is otherwise inappropriate for the role, that will result in measurable and potentially audible differences - but because the designer should be shot, not because it's more musical or something.
 
I repeat, any decent DAC will sound just like any other decent DAC (and I define "decent" here as "Measures beyond the proven thresholds of audibility"). Components that measure far, far beyond that threshold are pretty cheap these days.

Do all Music Software sound the same???
 
After all bits are bits, so as long as its bit-perfect the sound should be the same.
 
 

Yes, assuming it's not designed to do something to the sound, it does. If you think one music player sounds different to another, it is either not bit-perfect or relying on the wonders of the human psyche to make it sound different.

Why would you join a forum that celebrates the diversity of audio products if you feel that they are all the same???
 
Kind of like an Atheist joining a Catholic church just to rant and rave about there not being a Heaven or Hell.
 
 
Quote:

willakan said:

Not really. One person has made an unsubstantiated comment that opamps affect sound - assuming the opamps both measure well and are implemented correctly, they will not.
A DAC with a tube is a deliberate colouration of the sound. Tubes are uncommon in DACs and for good reason - the best thing to do with your raw audio is not add tonnes of harmonic distortion and roll off the high frequencies. That's what tube amps are for

 
DACs, unlike amps, are always meant to provide a neutral window into the sound. AFAIK, there isn't a huge amount of debate on this matter. Any competently designed DAC that measures above a certain level will sound just like any other DAC. If you shove a tube in it, it's no longer a competently designed DAC IMO. If the designer places an opamp in his circuit that measures abominably or is otherwise inappropriate for the role, that will result in measurable and potentially audible differences - but because the designer should be shot, not because it's more musical or something.
 
I repeat, any decent DAC will sound just like any other decent DAC (and I define "decent" here as "Measures beyond the proven thresholds of audibility"). Components that measure far, far beyond that threshold are pretty cheap these days.

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This thread is a Paradox.
 
A Website that has a forum dedicated to celebrating the diversity of audio products with a thread denouncing the validity of diversity.