Ha!  Classic!  
 
 
 
Wait, no pun intended.

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eee pee said:

Ha!  Classic!  
 
 
 
Wait, no pun intended.

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Exactly how I feel about this TT. Pricey in its fatherland, in Europe it will be pricier still. I "guess" I will have to take a pass ...

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analogsurviver said:

By "tape" you mean audio cassette tape ?

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Yes; audio cassette tape.

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destroysall said:

Yes; audio cassette tape.

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You would be shocked to learn just how advanced TOTL casette software and hardware is/was.
To be capable of seriously challenging reel to reel brethern, cassete had to go to the extreme lenghts and measures in - everything. If ANY R2R was even remotely as advanced than the last crop of cassette, we would have much better sound and sonically there would be next to no need for CD.
 
Analog is unfortunately $$$ - current R2R tapes are roughly 1 $/EUR per minute and TOTL cassete of the past is today even more. Economically not viable for anything except for the master recordings.
 
The unsung hero of the cassette world is Technics - its last machine was conceived in 1996 (!) and produced until 1999 IIRC, It is both laughable and it really hurts at the same time to see just to what lenghts did Technics go in this memorable swansong - service manual has some 60 pages - I guess they must have been losing money on this one compared to CD players "with nothing inside the box". To my knowledge, it was not available in the USA.
 
Here the vid of its operation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAivu9UhT
Please note the tape calibration - for best performance, that 20-30 second calibration is really helpful prior to any recording or playback - I found it to be necessary for EACH SIDE of the same casette!
 
Here the vid of its smaller brother :http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=W_iORKv18XE&NR=1
 
Here a very good review : http://www.tapeheads.net/showthread.php?t=8817
 
Due to its amorphous heads, in the bass it will dwarf any other analog recorder, cassette or R2R,  save a handful of last Sony/Aiwa cassette decks that also feature this technology but are far rarer still.

My thoughts exactly on the MH TT.
 
As for the new VPI...The price is a turn off for me, but I'm really interested in the arm.
 
Quote:

skylab said:

That Music Hall turntable is absolutely hideous.

On the other hand, I want that VPI Classic Direct drive TT so bad I might sell my car.

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Quote:

analogsurviver said:

You would be shocked to learn just how advanced TOTL casette software and hardware is/was.
To be capable of seriously challenging reel to reel brethern, cassete had to go to the extreme lenghts and measures in - everything. If ANY R2R was even remotely as advanced than the last crop of cassette, we would have much better sound and sonically there would be next to no need for CD.
 
Analog is unfortunately $$$ - current R2R tapes are roughly 1 $/EUR per minute and TOTL cassete of the past is today even more. Economically not viable for anything except for the master recordings.
 
The unsung hero of the cassette world is Technics - its last machine was conceived in 1996 (!) and produced until 1999 IIRC, It is both laughable and it really hurts at the same time to see just to what lenghts did Technics go in this memorable swansong - service manual has some 60 pages - I guess they must have been losing money on this one compared to CD players "with nothing inside the box". To my knowledge, it was not available in the USA.
 
Here the vid of its operation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAivu9UhT
Please note the tape calibration - for best performance, that 20-30 second calibration is really helpful prior to any recording or playback - I found it to be necessary for EACH SIDE of the same casette!
 
Here the vid of its smaller brother :http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=W_iORKv18XE&NR=1
 
Here a very good review : http://www.tapeheads.net/showthread.php?t=8817
 
Due to its amorphous heads, in the bass it will dwarf any other analog recorder, cassette or R2R,  save a handful of last Sony/Aiwa cassette decks that also feature this technology but are far rarer still.

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Interesting.. Is it worth investing to?  I love me some pure analogue. Other than the Technics, what are some models out there worth looking at?

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destroysall said:

Interesting.. Is it worth investing to?  I love me some pure analogue. Other than the Technics, what are some models out there worth looking at?

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It depends what you will be using it for - besides real master recording ( Mic > Preamp > Cassette )
only real use for pure analog would be live FM broadcasts - IF what is on air has not been through digital at some point, which is at this point in time highly unlikely.
 
Look on ebay what prices are comanded for tapes - if that does not turn you off right away, you might search on tapeheads forum for "amorphous head decks". Top Aiwa is said to be superb - but by now it became rare and expen$$ive. As always, it boils down to what is available and the size of the piggybank.
 
My Technics has seen very extensive modification ( it IS formidable in stock form ) and is being used with two Nakamichi High Com II noise reduction units ( again heavily modified ). Together, that really is "The Cassette Deck" - but such dedication is extreme and beyond the means of a "normal" audiophille.
 
I am recording DSD these days - because it is the digital that most closely approaches analog. It uses hard disk drive as storage media - FAR less expensive than analog ( cassette or R2R ) tape.
 
I have tried to answer best as I can - analog is nice, is real, but it is pricey at present and is unlikely to get any better regarding tape pricing. 

Without further derailing turntable pics, here a very nice, and above all, VERY Longhorn friendly clamp that got discovered by the usual "colateral demage" method while browsing ebay for some highly unrelated items. I have not seen one in real life or heard it, it is the absolute minimum (or close to that) as it gets, and unusually for a clamp/weight, allows visual acces to the record label by being made of transparent acryl over the record label. That should be relatively free from resonances compared to metal clamps.  It is also reasonably priced :
 http://www.ebay.de/itm/330851225677?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
No affiliation with the seller / usual yada yada.

How about this baby...
 

 
$175, no computer necessary

mikelap said:

Bought this Thorens TD160 back in 1977 along with a Quad 405 amp and Quad 33 preamp

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I had that exact table and arm package. Loved it!

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grokit said:

How about this baby...
 

 
$175, no computer necessary

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Hmmmm....That represents the very thing you do not want together - CD drive affecting the analog and analog affecting the CD drive, both from mechanical/acoustical and electrical point of view. It wins on the price vs performance for sure - but if you are about to digitize your LP collection, do not expect stellar results with this unit. And - the Numark cart on this TT/CD is not what you would like to record a precious direct to disk record with - at least say $ 50-100 for a decent cart necessary.
 
We have a saying : How much money, that much music. Cruely true applicable to all things audio.

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analogsurviver said:

CrazyRay, thank you for the entire list.
 
Hell, if I was not clear enough:
 
Madrigal Carnegie One ( that is how you know it, actually it is ANYTHING BUT - in name ) is/was one of the very best carts - EVER. Temperamental as hell, sample to sample there can be quite gross ( or grose ) difference, the best ones ( in single digit percentage of the whole lot ) were simply mesmerizing - the ones that were not so good were still outstanding.
 
Absolute nigtmare to rebuild - and no, you do not want that composite cantilever replaced by anything if you want to preserve its unique sound. 
The originally fitted Micro ??? stylus is perhaps the most cunning and practical solution found on any cartridge - it has a bit lower large scanning radius than either Van den Hul or other incarnations of Micro XYZ theme - meaning it can not threaten record demage/recutting , even if the azimuth is not perfectly adjusted. It will burn/grind in - and being a Micro, once it does, it will maintain that shape for something like 1000 hours prior sound degradation or threatening record demage.
 
NLA and next to impossible fo retip to original spec - so please treat it real nice. Short of changing the arm, nothing you can do for prolonging its life that you are not doing already.

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Thank's for the information analogsurviver.

I knew that the Madrigal Carnegie One cartridge was nice, but I didn't know that it was revered that much!

The sound from my Carnegie One is just amazing.

When I visit local stereo stores, I am always amazed that their LP systems sound horrible.

I usually attribute the bad sound to their speaker choice but now I'm thinking that it's most likely the turntable/cartridge setup.

Plus, some of these places really need to clean their records!
 
I guess they are mostly concerned about digital and put vinyl on the back burner?

If something should happen to my Carnegie One what would be comparable that is still in production that will work well with the SME 309 arm?

I was thinking maybe a Koetsu (Rosewood, Black Goldline or Urushi Black)?
 
Thanks again for the great information.
 
 

 
About Turntables this  reminds of a story. When my son was a teenager about 15 years ago i was showing him my turntable and records and to my great surprise not to say asthonishment he ask me how does this thing work he did not know what to do to play a record i was floored then i got old!

Quote:

crazyray said:

 
Thank's for the information analogsurviver.

I knew that the Madrigal Carnegie One cartridge was nice, but I didn't know that it was revered that much!

The sound from my Carnegie One is just amazing.

When I visit local stereo stores, I am always amazed that their LP systems sound horrible.

I usually attribute the bad sound to their speaker choice but now I'm thinking that it's most likely the turntable/cartridge setup.

Plus, some of these places really need to clean their records!
 
I guess they are mostly concerned about digital and put vinyl on the back burner?

If something should happen to my Carnegie One what would be comparable that is still in production that will work well with the SME 309 arm?

I was thinking maybe a Koetsu (Rosewood, Black Goldline or Urushi Black)?
 
Thanks again for the great information.
 
 

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Koetsu is an entirely different animal - in fact, Carnegie One was response from Ernst Benz to a demand from one of the Greek Audiophiles who wanted a cartridge that would obliterate Koetsus ! Too long a story, too technical to go in all the details.
 
Koetsu is a fine, very fine cart - but it is $$$ to retip to original spec, as it has a very unique method of mounting the stylus to the cantilever which results in perfect alignment of the diamond. It is Romantic compared to lean & mean Carnegie One  -  regardless of the model. There is no shortage of various Koetsu model reviews online - but if it is speed and immediacy of C 1 you are after, no Koetsu will deliver that. No current cart I am familiar with is a sonic equivalent of C 1. One I have read about but not heard has a chance of improving upon : http://dagogo.com/haniwa-audio-hctr01-cartridge-and-heqa01-phono-equalizer-review How it fits one's budget is another matter ...
 
For a dealer, analog is PITA compared to digital - the mere fact that  some better dealers are still supporting analog, even if it is not to your standard, must be regarded as positive. It is hard to keep records clean under dealer conditions and keeping $ in a RCM for "an odd analog customer or two " is usually not cost effective. Hope vinyl will continue to grow in quantity to change that for the better.

Thanks again for all of the great information analogsurviver!

You rock!!

I have been trying to use my Empire 698 with Shure V15 Type IV a little more to give the Carnegie One a little rest.

It's just not the same (still very musical and enjoyable) but not like you say (lean & mean) as the Carnegie One.

I been searching eBay for another Carnegie One as a backup but that is turning up futile.