Schiit DACs (Bifrost and Gungnir down, one to go)? The information and anticipation thread.

Nov 17, 2011 at 12:07 AM Post #1,666 of 3,339


Quote:
thanks!! yea the portability of the dacport could be a decider for me.. if the dacport is on par with the bifrost, i think i might get the LX instead..since it's also slightly cheaper..
 


Well, on par in some ways, dynamics are a big consideration but so is putting something in your pocket if you need that.  Give us some impressions when you can however you decide.
 
 
Nov 17, 2011 at 6:53 AM Post #1,667 of 3,339
 
Quote:
you used stock/regular usb cable or some audiophile usb cable?
i have a musiland 02 that can be used as usb > spdif converter, but i dont know if it will sound better than just using the bifrost's usb input. so it's really important for me that the usb will sound just as good as spdif because i can save money when i order the bifrost without usb.


 


drexman, my guess (and it's only a guess, because I don't have your system to listen to) is that straight input to the Bifrost will sound better.  I have a Musical Fidelity V-Link, a similar sort of box to your Musiland.  I tried the Bifrost running coax and optical from the V-Link, and the Bifrost directly connected to my MacBook Pro with optical and USB.  My ranking of sound quality in my own system, from best to worst:
 
1. USB direct
 
2. Optical direct
 
3. Coax and optical through V-Link (tie)
 
#3 wasn't really close to #1 and #2.  It makes sense, because at the price of the Musiland or V-Link, you're really just adding another box in front of the Bifrost, you're not improving over the Bifrost's direct USB interface.  And if you're not improving anything, just the fact that you're running the signal through an extra box will result in some dropoff in sound quality.
 
I do have an audiophile USB cable (see sig), and that's probably one reason I prefer the USB to the optical S/PDIF direct.  The optical output from the MBP is also reputed to be quite jittery.  It's possible your experience with optical direct (or coax direct, which I don't have from the MBP) would be different than mine, depending on your source.  I'm also using a player (Audirvana Plus) that may help with USB sound quality.
 
 
Nov 17, 2011 at 7:00 AM Post #1,668 of 3,339
 
Quote:
What's your point?
 
Do you have anything to say about the content of my posts?
 
Is this an example of a wasted post or is yours?
 

 
No point - it was meant as a (joking) compliment, thus the smiley.
 
I'd say my OT original, your reply, and this response are all wasted posts, but as it seems I unintentionally gave offense, I thought I ought to clear this up.
 
Just wanted to apologize if I caused you any concern or anger - not my intention at all.
 
Once again, back to our regularly scheduled thread...
 
 
Nov 17, 2011 at 10:17 AM Post #1,670 of 3,339
i guess you're right, i've heard similar things from knowledgable people here like dan lavry. so i guess my best option is to use usb to bifrost with an audiophile cable.
maybe that guy who said spdif sounded better than usb just used a bad usb cable and a good coaxial cable so the differences he heard were coming from cables and not the bifrost's inputs. i sure hope so.
i wonder, out of curiousity, have you heard the bifrost's spdif through a really good transport like a cd player?
 
Quote:
 

drexman, my guess (and it's only a guess, because I don't have your system to listen to) is that straight input to the Bifrost will sound better.  I have a Musical Fidelity V-Link, a similar sort of box to your Musiland.  I tried the Bifrost running coax and optical from the V-Link, and the Bifrost directly connected to my MacBook Pro with optical and USB.  My ranking of sound quality in my own system, from best to worst:
 
1. USB direct
 
2. Optical direct
 
3. Coax and optical through V-Link (tie)
 
#3 wasn't really close to #1 and #2.  It makes sense, because at the price of the Musiland or V-Link, you're really just adding another box in front of the Bifrost, you're not improving over the Bifrost's direct USB interface.  And if you're not improving anything, just the fact that you're running the signal through an extra box will result in some dropoff in sound quality.
 
I do have an audiophile USB cable (see sig), and that's probably one reason I prefer the USB to the optical S/PDIF direct.  The optical output from the MBP is also reputed to be quite jittery.  It's possible your experience with optical direct (or coax direct, which I don't have from the MBP) would be different than mine, depending on your source.  I'm also using a player (Audirvana Plus) that may help with USB sound quality.
 



 
 
Nov 17, 2011 at 12:20 PM Post #1,671 of 3,339
Not trolling, but not sure you need an expensive USB cable. Digital is digital. USB uses CRC to ensure transmission integrity. If you get dropped data, you have a broken cable, not a cheap one ;)
 
Quote:
i guess you're right, i've heard similar things from knowledgable people here like dan lavry. so i guess my best option is to use usb to bifrost with an audiophile cable.
maybe that guy who said spdif sounded better than usb just used a bad usb cable and a good coaxial cable so the differences he heard were coming from cables and not the bifrost's inputs. i sure hope so.
i wonder, out of curiousity, have you heard the bifrost's spdif through a really good transport like a cd player?
 


 



 
 
Nov 17, 2011 at 2:35 PM Post #1,673 of 3,339
Not trolling, but not sure you need an expensive USB cable. Digital is digital. USB uses CRC to ensure transmission integrity. If you get dropped data, you have a broken cable, not a cheap one ;)


I understand where you're coming from and having a background in IT I tend to agree…But I'm still on the fence about it myself. However, people here will go on all night and day with you about that, trust me. There was a thread awhile back where a guy simply claimed that the majority of statement level multithousand dollar DACs were no better than most ~300-400 dollar DACs. Needless to say that was like a 10+ page schiit storm. It's one person's word against another one. The usual argument on one side is money spent encourages a placebo effect.

Trust your ears. That's all I have to say.

For the person who asked, there is no "stock" USB cable unfortunately. Which is a shame because the Asgard shipped with a decent LR-> 1/8th adapter. It ships without a USB cable even if you order the card. I was lucky enough to have one from an old printer lying around.
 
Nov 17, 2011 at 5:04 PM Post #1,674 of 3,339
 
Quote:
 
No point - it was meant as a (joking) compliment, thus the smiley.

 
My bad. I guess I was being a bit sensitive and I felt called out at the time.
 
Thanks for the thoughtful reply 
smile.gif

 
Nov 17, 2011 at 7:25 PM Post #1,675 of 3,339
Thank you for this, judmarc.   I was wondering what a V-Link might do to further improve the signal versus Optical out from a Mac.  
 
Quote:
 
1. USB direct
 
2. Optical direct
 
3. Coax and optical through V-Link (tie)
 
#3 wasn't really close to #1 and #2.  It makes sense, because at the price of the Musiland or V-Link, you're really just adding another box in front of the Bifrost, you're not improving over the Bifrost's direct USB interface.  And if you're not improving anything, just the fact that you're running the signal through an extra box will result in some dropoff in sound quality.
 

 
 
Nov 18, 2011 at 7:53 AM Post #1,676 of 3,339
Quote:
i guess you're right, i've heard similar things from knowledgable people here like dan lavry. so i guess my best option is to use usb to bifrost with an audiophile cable.
maybe that guy who said spdif sounded better than usb just used a bad usb cable and a good coaxial cable so the differences he heard were coming from cables and not the bifrost's inputs. i sure hope so.
i wonder, out of curiousity, have you heard the bifrost's spdif through a really good transport like a cd player?


I'm absolutely sure that in some systems S/PDIF will sound better.  In my system the dice are kinda loaded in favor of USB.
 
I have a really excellent coaxial cable (Omega Mikro Zephyr), and I've heard the Bifrost using that cable fed by my Oppo BDP-83, which I'd consider a good (though certainly not state of the art) transport.  The Bifrost fed from my MacBook Pro sounds much better than the original CD from the BDP-83 over coax.  But that's another unfair comparison - the sound quality from my computer rig was already better than sound from the Oppo back when I was using a Theta Pro Basic II DAC and the V-Link.  Where I think you might get a fairer comparison is using the optical and/or coax out from a very good sound card where the computer and sound card are optimized for low electrical noise and jitter.  My guess is the folks at Schiit listened to reasonably priced PC and Mac rigs with the Bifrost before indicating they think USB may not be the greatest audio interface, so I'm sure astronomical expense isn't necessary to achieve excellent sound with the Bifrost's S/PDIF inputs.
 
Sorry for what I'm sure sounds like back-and-forth to you, but I want to make two things clear:
 
- What I hear from my system
 
- Acknowledge that other folks with different systems can and will get different results
 
Re "audiophile cable," I've tried my system with 4 USB cables.  In order of preference they are:
 
- Audioquest Carbon
 
- Audioquest Forest
 
- Wireworld Starlight
 
- Furutech GT2
 
In order of expense they are:
 
- Audioquest Carbon and Furutech GT2, both in the $100-$110 range (for the length I use)
 
- Wireworld Starlight, about $85
 
- Audioquest Forest, about $30-$35
 
So the Forest, by far the least costly, would be to my mind a relative bargain.
 
 
Nov 18, 2011 at 11:38 AM Post #1,677 of 3,339
"we put a ton of time into our USB implementation, but, to our ears, USB still doesn’t quite offer the performance of SPDIF"... damn... i still hope they used some crappy usb cable, lol.
macbook's usb sounds better than cd player's spdif with bifrost? you made me really happy right now.
thanks so much for the usb cables comparison. i was going to buy the starlight but now the forest sounds perfect at such a low price. a 30$ cable sounds better than 85-100$ cables? wow. if so audioquest must be a really good company. can you describe a bit what makes the forest sound better than starlight and gt2  and what about carbon sounds better than forest and how big is the difference?
 
 
Nov 18, 2011 at 1:38 PM Post #1,678 of 3,339

Quote:
i was going to buy the starlight but now the forest sounds perfect at such a low price. a 30$ cable sounds better than 85-100$ cables? wow. if so audioquest must be a really good company. can you describe a bit what makes the forest sound better than starlight and gt2  and what about carbon sounds better than forest and how big is the difference?
 


Audioquest has been a good cable company for a long time - of course, so has Wireworld.  (There I go again, right? :-)  But yes, I did definitely prefer the Forest to the Starlight and GT2.  What were the things that made me prefer the Forest?  Let me give you a quick intro to my personal "philosophy of sound quality" if you want to call it that, so you know where I'm coming from.
 
Listening to music ain't rocket science. Don't make it harder than it is. Couple of really easy ways to tell whether what you're hearing is closer to what the artist intended:
- Probably easiest of all: You hear greater differences between the sounds of different tracks. There are virtually always differences between the sounds of two different recordings, and even between the sounds of different tracks on the same recording. If everything sounds similar, one or more of your components is either not passing along all the info it's receiving from the recording, or imparting a 'sound' of its own, or both. The converse is that the greater the differences between tracks, the more information your components are passing through from the recording, and/or the less sound of their own they're imparting - i.e., they're better components.
- You hear more realistic-sounding instruments or (especially) vocals. (Especially vocals since the human voice is the 'instrument' with which we're all most familiar.) Don't concentrate on whether there's good bass or treble; that way lies madness, because there's no reference for it in real life - no one ever left a Pavarotti recital raving about the quality of the 'treble.' In fact, don't concentrate at all. Just listen to whether the voice sounds natural. You likely hear people's voices every single day, so it's not hard at all to tell in an instant whether the voices coming from your speakers or headphones sound right.
- Greater emotion is conveyed by the same music. This is another simple test where concentrating too hard can be antithetical to best results. Listening to music is an emotional experience. All sorts of sound quality goodness is packed into the simple conclusion as to whether a piece of music moves you as it should. Are there good microdynamics so subtle vocal shadings and phrasing are communicated effectively? What about the handling of macrodynamics so crescendos make the hair on the back of your neck stand up? Effective reproduction of transient attacks so percussion instruments sound real and communicate rhythmic excitement? (This has been put in terms of "Does it have you tapping your feet?" Of course there's always some wag saying Hey, I'm not about to be tapping my feet to my Archie Shepp/Gregorian chant/etc. recording here. Yes, we know.)

So in that context, what did I hear from these cables?  It's easiest to begin with the Furutech.  It was substantially worse than the other cables.  There was little real detail, almost a muddy quality, but always a pseudo-detailed "zippiness" or "twang" to the sound that over-emphasized things like fingers sliding on guitar strings.  Everything sounded similar, and looking at my first principle above, we know that can't be good.
 
The Starlight was a good cable - voices and instruments sounded nice and natural, it gave quite a bit more "bloom" and drama to the sound in crescendoes, good soundstage.  Nice listening experience, nothing really bad to say about it, and I could live with the cable if I had to.
 
The Forest provided more natural-sounding vocals in particular.  I like my demos to include several recordings of vocals that aren't heavily produced, with the vocalist "out front" in a sparse mix - for example, Rosanne Cash's "The List," especially the song "500 Miles;"  Alison Krauss's "Paper Airplane;" and Gillian Welch's "The Harrow and the Harvest."  On these types of songs, the Forest provided more actual detail and microdynamics, making subtle phrasing and vocal shadings more apparent, so giving a more natural sound overall.  There were better macrodynamics and transients, too, giving recordings more drama and emotional excitement.  I could be happily satisfied with this as my USB cable.
 
The Carbon did all that the Forest had done, but more so.  Even more natural sounding vocals, with better microdynamics.  More detail in the vocals, e.g., lyrics were more easily understandable.  On something as plainly recorded as Gillian Welch's voice on "Hard Times" from The Harrow and the Harvest, it sounds real, like she's standing in the room singing.  Better, bigger soundstage (on tracks recorded that way - I have a recording called "Stay Awake," of artists doing Disney songs, and it has Tom Waits singing "Heigh Ho" so down and dirty you can feel the Seven Dwarves working all day in a mine with picks and shovels; if you get a soundstage higher than about 3 feet on this song, there's something wrong); greater localization of instruments so you can follow the instrumental lines better.  More "bloom" and drama where instruments join in with the vocalist.
 
Between the Carbon and the Forest, IMO it just comes down to what you can reasonably afford.  I could happily have kept the Forest in my system forever if $100 had felt like more than I wanted to spend on a cable.  But in the context of my entire system, $100 didn't feel like too much, so I bought it.  Of course, if it hadn't sounded a fair amount better than the Forest I would have returned it, just as I did the Starlight and the GT2.  But it did sound better, so I kept it.
 
Nov 18, 2011 at 5:35 PM Post #1,679 of 3,339
For what it's worth, I'm currently using a Furutech GT2 with the Bifrost and am pretty satisfied with it - it's a noticeable improvement over stock cables. Before the Bifrost, I was using the following configuration, though, so it's difficult for me to tell what improvement, if any, the GT2 made:
 
Motherboard USB port -> Kimber Kable USB B-Bus Cable (non-Silver version) with ferrite beads removed (these were originally put on by Kimber Kable to reduce EMI/RFI etc., but there's since been a lot of talk about how they could potentially interrupt signal flow in a USB application, so I chose to remove them) -> Olimex USB Isolator dongle w/ 12v switching power supply -> Radio Shack USB Cable with what looked like gold plated connectors.
 
I then swapped out the Radio Shack cable for the GT2 so that the GT2 ran from the Olimex dongle to my then-DAC (the Keces DA-151 USB DAC), instead. There seemed to be improvement - more sense of "air," slightly more textural sense to the instruments, although admittedly it also seemed to make the music a little more recessed, which may echo what was said about the cable sounding a little "muddy" - it definitely enjoys percussive sounds and guitar strums etc. stand out very much from the background, and tends to be more merciless with source material (MP3's sounded noticeably worse after the GT2 versus FLAC). Overall, however, the sonic character the Olimex dongle imparted to my then-DAC was much more forceful than any cable (more "gain" and clarity, everything sounded louder and more aggresive + a blacker background). Such dongles are not asynchronous-friendly, from what I've gathered, however, so I have kept it away from the Bifrost in fear that I may fry something. Additionally, the purpose of USB isolator dongles is, ostensibly, to galvanically isolate your computer and your DAC from one another, and the Bifrost's USB solution does this already per Jason (my old DAC did not, to my knowledge, or at least not very effectively). Right now, as a consequence, the Furutech GT2 runs from my motherboard USB port directly to the Bifrost, and I've yet to A/B my Kimber Kable USB (which I still have lying around) with the Furutech. I may give that a shot. for kicks. The Furutech definitely has much more sturdy of a build quality than the Kimber Kable - it's thick as hell and its connectors will grip anything they're plugged into without much give. 
 
Anyway, I doubt I'll be changing the Furutech for anything anytime soon - it's improved over stock, and my experience with USB cables has been subtle enough that I'd rather tinker with the rest of the signal chain before throwing more money at USB cables again. I'll keep the Forest recc in mind, though, since it wouldn't be that much of a gamble some time in the future. There is some school of thought that asynchronous protocols in USB DACs make audiophile USB cables more of a moot point, anyway, if I recall correctly.
 
Nov 18, 2011 at 5:41 PM Post #1,680 of 3,339
Well, my system is complete as of today! Sounding wonderful and pleased with initial sonic from the bifrost. Introducing the bifrost really opened my eyes to what the lyr is capable of doing. The bifrost is really spacious sounding and clean, very nice. Maybe a while before i put some sort of impressions together for here. till then rest assured the bifrost is no joke, rather earnest.  
 

 

 

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