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Amps that can drive the HiFiMan HE-6 planar headphones - Page 119

post #1771 of 2717
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdrm360 View Post
 

Does anyone know if the Lyr have enough power to drive the HE-6?

 

Schiit Lyr specs:

Maximum Power, 32 ohms: 6.0W
Maximum Power, 50 ohms: 4.0W

 

No.

 

Well, let's put it this way.  Yes, you can get it to play music.

post #1772 of 2717
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdrm360 View Post
 

Does anyone know if the Lyr have enough power to drive the HE-6?

 

Schiit Lyr specs:

Maximum Power, 32 ohms: 6.0W
Maximum Power, 50 ohms: 4.0W

 

Power is meaningless, that's the conclusion I drew from my experience with the SA-31 which is 10Wpc (@32R) and still doesn't come close to the Exposure 2010S integrated, overall.

post #1773 of 2717
Quote:
Originally Posted by preproman View Post
 

 

No.

 

Well, let's put it this way.  Yes, you can get it to play music.

 

How much power does it need? 

post #1774 of 2717
You won't find consensus regarding how much power HE-6 needs. It might not have to do with power - well, except that you probably need at least 1.5-2 Watts to get undistorted peaks.

It depends on your listening SPL also and perhaps the power supply of the amp also.

I really enjoy HE-6 out of the balanced amp in both HM-801 and HM-901. They don't provide enough power in terms of loudness for sure, but I do think bass and treble is perfect nevertheless.
post #1775 of 2717
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdrm360 View Post
 

 

How much power does it need? 

 

Based on measurements I personally made with my HE-6's (which measure 61 ohms, by the way), you want an amp that can do at least half a watt RMS continuous with the ability to go to 7 watts for peaks.  If you want headroom over my personal SPL level, then up-rate as appropriate.

post #1776 of 2717
Quote:
Originally Posted by potterma View Post
 

 

Based on measurements I personally made with my HE-6's (which measure 61 ohms, by the way), you want an amp that can do at least half a watt RMS continuous with the ability to go to 7 watts for peaks.  If you want headroom over my personal SPL level, then up-rate as appropriate.

 

7 watts on 61 ohms, so even Schiit Mjolnir is not good enough.

post #1777 of 2717
Please remember that even though HE-6 is the worlds current production least sensitive headphone, it still reaches 90dB with 20 milliwatt.

This means that unless you listen at extreme ear damaging SPLs you will do with much less than 7 Watts. My Master-6 amp is 7 Watts and Soloist is about 1.7 Watts in 50 Ohm. The latter is in no way lacking bass power or producing edgy or sharp treble. Read the review at Headfinia: he actually says the Soloist drives HE-6 better than Dark Star, which noone blames to be under powering the HE-6. Also, preproman's First Watt (current source) speaker amp, that he finds extremely good with HE-6, is also less than about 2 Watts in 50 Ohm.

This implies to me that it is not about wattage, as long as you have a properly dimensioned power supply.

Quality of the amp is far more important than extreme wattage IMO. HE-6 is phenomenally transparent and resolving and this will be compromised with a mid fi, high power amp.
post #1778 of 2717
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsHP View Post

Please remember that even though HE-6 is the worlds current production least sensitive headphone, it still reaches 90dB with 20 milliwatt.

This means that unless you listen at extreme ear damaging SPLs you will do with much less than 7 Watts. My Master-6 amp is 7 Watts and Soloist is about 1.7 Watts in 50 Ohm. The latter is in no way lacking bass power or producing edgy or sharp treble. Read the review at Headfinia: he actually says the Soloist drives HE-6 better than Dark Star, which noone blames to be under powering the HE-6. Also, preproman's First Watt (current source) speaker amp, that he finds extremely good with HE-6, is also less than about 2 Watts in 50 Ohm.

This implies to me that it is not about wattage, as long as you have a properly dimensioned power supply.

Quality of the amp is far more important than extreme wattage IMO. HE-6 is phenomenally transparent and resolving and this will be compromised with a mid fi, high power amp.

 

Not to delve into this too much, but headfonia is a terribly unreliable and inaccurate site to get information from. 
 
Also, I think the Dark Star is pretty well criticized around these parts pretty well, and mighty heftily in other audio communities. 
post #1779 of 2717

Okay, others may think different about Headfonia, but my points remain the same. Haven't heard Dark Star myself, but HE-6 with my 50W Class A power amp and the above mentioned amps.


Edited by LarsHP - 9/20/13 at 2:50am
post #1780 of 2717
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdrm360 View Post

7 watts on 61 ohms, so even Schiit Mjolnir is not good enough.

Remember that is PEAK power. Unless a manufacturer specifies rms or peak you don't know which he his specifying! An amp that specs rms power may be able to deliver MUCH higher peak power than rated rms. I've gotten over 400 W peaks out of a 180 W rms Carver amp. I'm really not sure how Schiit specs ther stuff. Anyone know?
post #1781 of 2717

http://www.headfonia.com/burson-vs-violectric-conductor-vs-v200v800/ (check the comments)

 

Mike at headfonia calims the V200 with the V800 is the best he've heard with the HE-6. 

 

Strangely, he sells more expensive and powerful amps in his shop, so you cannot blame him on being totally biased.. I heard the V200 HE-6 myself and quite liked it, actually - but all this talk about wattage gets to you, haha

 

Any comments? From people who actually HEARD the V200 (fed balanced) in direct comparison to other HE-6 capable amps?

post #1782 of 2717
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarsHP View Post

... snip ... Also, preproman's First Watt (current source) speaker amp, that he finds extremely good with HE-6, is also less than about 2 Watts in 50 Ohm.

This implies to me that it is not about wattage, as long as you have a properly dimensioned power supply.

Quality of the amp is far more important than extreme wattage .

As you say, the F1 is a current amp. I don't think your inference about its power into 50 ohms is correct. I'll put a scope on my F1 tonight and do some measurements.
Just because an amp has a great power supply does not mean it can drive high power peaks. You also must have headroom in the amplification stages or it will just go into clipping.
Quality is crucial. However, when it comes to the HE-6, so is power.
post #1783 of 2717
Quote:
Originally Posted by potterma View Post


Remember that is PEAK power. Unless a manufacturer specifies rms or peak you don't know which he his specifying! An amp that specs rms power may be able to deliver MUCH higher peak power than rated rms. I've gotten over 400 W peaks out of a 180 W rms Carver amp. I'm really not sure how Schiit specs ther stuff. Anyone know?

 

Schiit is continous RMS. Have it on email from Jason S if I remember correctly. 


Edited by ardilla - 9/20/13 at 6:35am
post #1784 of 2717
Quote:
Originally Posted by potterma View Post

As you say, the F1 is a current amp. I don't think your inference about its power into 50 ohms is correct. I'll put a scope on my F1 tonight and do some measurements.
Just because an amp has a great power supply does not mean it can drive high power peaks. You also must have headroom in the amplification stages or it will just go into clipping.
Quality is crucial. However, when it comes to the HE-6, so is power.

Continuous rated power output will be the minimum undistorted output power in a specified load. Peaks higher than this are rarely specified and when they are, duration is also important. However, we often (if not always) see amps capable of playing louder in peaks than continuous power. I put that aside anyway:

 

At 90dB the HE-6 needs just short of 0.02W (20 mW). This means that to reach 100dB 0.2W is needed and to reach 110dB 2W is needed. So - if you have music with peaks 20dB higher than the average SPL (which would be quite extreme) and your average SPL is 90dB's, then you need an amp capable of delivering 2W in the appropriate load. I can say from my own experience with my SPL meter at hand, that 90dB average is very loud - much too loud for me (through speaker or headphone). This means that 2W is (more than) enough for me to get the desired SPL without clipping.

 

When all this is said, much of the debate in this thread about properly driving HE-6 is related to bass and treble performance: a lean or anemic bass and a harsh or sharp treble is associated with under-powering HE-6. This is much more interesting to me than clipping, because clipping is more easily detected than a tonal imbalance caused by under-powering: people will think HE-6 is bass shy for instance even though it is not. It is simply underpowered. That's the notion you get reading many posts here and in the HE-6 thread. I have been one of those in this "choir" saying you need at least 5 or 6 Watts, but my experience has proven this wrong. I don't find the bass thin and/or the treble harsh when powering HE-6 with the built-in balanced amp in respectively HM-801 and HM-901. They just have a limit in terms of SPL. No distortion, no tonal imbalance, no lean bass or sharp treble - just a limit in terms of maximum SPL. 

post #1785 of 2717
Quote:
Originally Posted by potterma View Post


As you say, the F1 is a current amp. I don't think your inference about its power into 50 ohms is correct. I'll put a scope on my F1 tonight and do some measurements.
Just because an amp has a great power supply does not mean it can drive high power peaks. You also must have headroom in the amplification stages or it will just go into clipping.
Quality is crucial. However, when it comes to the HE-6, so is power.

 

After thinking about a current amplifier and how it behaves with different loads. The power delivered into a given load will be dependent on the impedance, the current available from the amp and the compliance voltage of the amplifier output stage.  Maximum output current for the F1 is 1.75 A.  Maximum voltage is 20 V.  The limiting factor, then (for the HE-6 at 50 ohms) is the compliance voltage.  A maximum peak voltage of 20 V across 50 ohms would provide 8 watts into the load.

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