[Inks]

I don't really know that the whole number of drivers thing means "squat" is completely true... I think it is impossible by the laws of physics that one single driver trying to make all the different vibrations necessary to reproduce the full frequency range of human hearing could sound better than 3 or 4 drivers tuned by crossovers to only have to reproduce a limited range each. One of the reasons why the W4 excells in being able to hear words and details you thought you couldn't hear before.
Just my 2c. but I do agree that just because an iem has a lot of drivers it is going to always sound "good". More factors are involved than number of drivers (which is what you are really saying anyway I think) however properly utilized multiple drivers can produce a superior sound than a single or double.

  Depends on the bandwidth proficiency of each driver used. It's pretty well documented that the TWFK (dual-driver) set-ups have more treble bandwidth than the most expansive single BA IEMs (from Etymotic/FAD/Phonak). But then there are multi-BA set-ups with 3 or 4 drivers that have less bandwidth than TWFKs and even single BAs like the Phonak and Etymotics. There are tuning compromises that get made as you tune for a specific sound, the case that more drivers will always have a better reach is just untrue based on many well-documented examples, but the potential greater bandwidth is there with more drivers. Example the TG334 has less treble reach than the single driver ER4PT, despite using 4 drivers and likely less reach than a single driver FAD IEM in bass extension. In the end, the use of more drivers is more to tune for a specific sound rather trying to aim at extension. The W4 doesn't bring anything that I couldn't hear in single and deal BAs IME as long as it's the right ones. 

 

[Doc-holliday]

  Depends on the bandwidth proficiency of each driver used. It's pretty well documented that the TWFK (dual-driver) set-ups have more treble bandwidth than the most expansive single BA IEMs (from Etymotic/FAD/Phonak). But then there are multi-BA set-ups with 3 or 4 drivers that have less bandwidth than TWFKs and even single BAs like the Phonak and Etymotics. There are tuning compromises that get made as you tune for a specific sound, the case that more drivers will always have a better reach is just untrue based on many well-documented examples, but the potential greater bandwidth is there with more drivers. Example the TG334 has less treble reach than the single driver ER4PT, despite using 4 drivers and likely less reach than a single driver FAD IEM in bass extension. In the end, the use of more drivers is more to tune for a specific sound rather trying to aim at extension. The W4 doesn't bring anything that I couldn't hear in single and deal BAs IME as long as it's the right ones. 

I think I made the exact point that more drivers don't always mean better sound. A single driver trying to reproduce many freq's at once will be less possible than multiple drivers. If that weren't true then home audio and professional audio systems would come with one driver as opposed to tweeters in combo with other drivers for mids and bass for example.

Im not really arguing with what you are saying however as I don't necessarily think that an 8 BA IEM is a necessity then again I have never had the opportunity to hear one.

In relation to the W4's however, to my ears they make things come out more than anything I have been able to try as of yet in IEMs. Better than 535's. Much better than my TF10's. I attribute it to the utilization and implementation of the extra drivers. That being said my listening experience is probably not nearly as diverse as yours.

 

[Inks]

Quote:

I think I made the exact point that more drivers don't always mean better sound. A single driver trying to reproduce many freq's at once will be less possible than multiple drivers. If that weren't true then home audio and professional audio systems would come with one driver as opposed to tweeters in combo with other drivers for mids and bass for example.
Im not really arguing with what you are saying however as I don't necessarily think that an 8 BA IEM is a necessity then again I have never had the opportunity to hear one.
In relation to the W4's however, to my ears they make things come out more than anything I have been able to try as of yet in IEMs. Better than 535's. Much better than my TF10's. I attribute it to the utilization and implementation of the extra drivers. That being said my listening experience is probably not nearly as diverse as yours.

Speaker set-ups are a very different matter all-together, not going to get into that. Really, if you want the most bandwidth possible, listen to a micro-driver, single dynamic IEM (JVC FXDs/EPH100), likely more reach than any Quad Driver BA universal and maybe even the ones with more drivers (though kind of unfair as dynamics typically have more reach).
 
  Compared to the two mentioned the W4 does bring out certain things more than the two compared, but it's really because of it's tuning more than because of the drivers. The TF10 has tiny bit less treble extension than the W4, probably a mute point as it's something like a 17k compared to the W4s 19k reach, many don't even hear that high. The W4 shines in bringing out stuff compared to the two because it's well balanced response, the SE535 is relatively well balanced as well, but it has even less reach than even some single-BA IEMs as it doesn't use typical crossovers, it uses a co-op system that makes it act like a single-BA making it loose treble detail compared to the W4. Really, in my extensive experience, more drivers are used to tune for a more specific sound rather than trying to have the most reach possible, two drivers can already give you a 20-20k reach, vented single drivers can reach 20-17k which is just fine. 

 

[Doc-holliday]

Wow that's very interesting. I just put my finger on one point I notice with the W4. Its the separation. Wouldn't you say that it is more possible to get better separation with multiple drivers? IDK I am just asking, if you have a song with many freq's being produced during a busy part of a song, aren't you more likely to be able to discern small details with more drivers? I think it's that separation I love so much about my W4's because there are definitely heavy rock songs for example with words I never even imagined you were supposed to understand that I can now clearly make out. Background whispers noises that happened in the studio mistakenly included in a track etc. Things seem to blend less than the TF10's I have or any of the other iems I have laying around here.

 

[HeadphoneAddict]

I got to try the W4R at RMAF with my balanced TWag V2 eclipse cable and RSA SR-71b balanced amp, and was quite impressed with the combination.  It was lively and energetic, spacious, warm, extended, detailed, etc...  Still my favorite universal IEM, but more so with the upgraded cable and balanced amp.  I may have to get one now, and hand my original W4 down to my son.

 

[treal512]

Quote:

I got to try the W4R at RMAF with my balanced TWag V2 eclipse cable and RSA SR-71b balanced amp, and was quite impressed with the combination.  It was lively and energetic, spacious, warm, extended, detailed, etc...  Still my favorite universal IEM, but more so with the upgraded cable and balanced amp.  I may have to get one now, and hand my original W4 down to my son.

 
That poor kid! 

 
Btw, all this driver talk is reminding me of the CT20.
 

 

[ANDEROAN]

Quote:

 
That poor kid! 

 
Btw, all this driver talk is reminding me of the CT20.
 

ggrrr, what is that beautiful little beast, I couldn't find a reference to it? thanks! drool drool, lol,

 

[JohnSantana]

Wow that doesn't seems to be W4 since the driver (metallic parts) are 5 ?

 

[ANDEROAN]

yes and 3 of them look to be dual? so maybe a total of 8 BAs? and the copper spool looks uber intrigueing as to what it might do? or is it normal to have it in there? ??'s? and more ???'s ggrrr, ugh! lol,

 

[heart banger-97]

Quote:

ggrrr, what is that beautiful little beast, I couldn't find a reference to it? thanks! drool drool, lol,

I think that it belong to  April Fools' Day (two years ago)

 

[Inks]

Wow that's very interesting. I just put my finger on one point I notice with the W4. Its the separation. Wouldn't you say that it is more possible to get better separation with multiple drivers? IDK I am just asking, if you have a song with many freq's being produced during a busy part of a song, aren't you more likely to be able to discern small details with more drivers? I think it's that separation I love so much about my W4's because there are definitely heavy rock songs for example with words I never even imagined you were supposed to understand that I can now clearly make out. Background whispers noises that happened in the studio mistakenly included in a track etc. Things seem to blend less than the TF10's I have or any of the other iems I have laying around here.

  Separation is achieved by a good transient response. IME, the best single and dual BAs have among the best separation one can get. With 3 or more drivers, it's still a hit or miss, the TF10 and SE535s were a bit of a miss, couple of single/dual BAs have better imaging than those. The W4 does indeed have great separation, on par with the best of them. Again, not something I will attribute to more drivers. 

 

[Doc-holliday]

  Separation is achieved by a good transient response. IME, the best single and dual BAs have among the best separation one can get. With 3 or more drivers, it's still a hit or miss, the TF10 and SE535s were a bit of a miss, couple of single/dual BAs have better imaging than those. The W4 does indeed have great separation, on par with the best of them. Again, not something I will attribute to more drivers. 

Your opinion of the TF10 and SE535 vs the W4 in that regard is exactly how i hear them.

Like I was saying earlier more drivers don't necessarily mean better if not well implemented. I think another example is the W3 to my ears is quite a large step down from the W4 and there is one less driver but they still do have 3 drivers in there.

I think you have a better technical understanding than I do, but it still makes sense to me that when proper design and engineering is applied a multi driver system should beat out a well designed single driver. Now you have me intrigued and I am going to have to try to gain some empirical knowledge by testing myself. What single driver iem would you say beats out the W4 in separation and overall sound? I'll find them and try em.

 

[JohnSantana]

Quote:

Your opinion of the TF10 and SE535 vs the W4 in that regard is exactly how i hear them.
Like I was saying earlier more drivers don't necessarily mean better if not well implemented. I think another example is the W3 to my ears is quite a large step down from the W4 and there is one less driver but they still do have 3 drivers in there.
I think you have a better technical understanding than I do, but it still makes sense to me that when proper design and engineering is applied a multi driver system should beat out a well designed single driver. Now you have me intrigued and I am going to have to try to gain some empirical knowledge by testing myself. What single driver iem would you say beats out the W4 in separation and overall sound? I'll find them and try em.

in comparing those IEMs, which graph do you guys pays attention ? is it frequency response or square wave ?
 
because I was about to buy Sennheiser IE80 (single dynamic driver) but then I read the review in this forum that it is only good for bass heavy music, then I'm no longer interested due to my music is all rock & metal (not so much of a bass head).

 

[treal512]

Quote:

ggrrr, what is that beautiful little beast, I couldn't find a reference to it? thanks! drool drool, lol,

 
Quote:

Wow that doesn't seems to be W4 since the driver (metallic parts) are 5 ?

 
Quote:

yes and 3 of them look to be dual? so maybe a total of 8 BAs? and the copper spool looks uber intrigueing as to what it might do? or is it normal to have it in there? ??'s? and more ???'s ggrrr, ugh! lol,

 
Quote:

I think that it belong to  April Fools' Day (two years ago)

 

 

[ANDEROAN]

Quote:

or is it more to the liking of  

, hey that's not fair, ain't even april? thanks my ears are

, so spill the beans Mr. Mr. don't make me bring on the thunder and lightning?

,  just so you know, I have ways of making people not talk? lol