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sokolov91 said:

That is the absolute WORST advice I have ever seen someone give. I wish I were exagerating, too.
 
I myself got into the whole audiogon cable thing about a year ago, when I didn't have enough money to make a real upgrade, but wanted one nonetheless. You really feel like you are getting a deal and are making small improvements, until you realize 3-4 cables later, that they all sound the same, and you could have actually bought something significant for that amount of cash... that and that you are also a huge sucker.
 
If your pricepoint is low, you should NOT be buying cables any place other than radioshack. As your budget gets higher, you have more money to throw away in order to make themselves feel good. Some choose charity, others chose cables. They are both entirely unrelated to audio.
 

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That's a lot coming from someone who uses Blacksand cables. I'm not even going to bother arguing with you. You might as well buy everything else at radioshack while you're at it. Also, just because you can't hear the difference between cables doesn't mean that everyone else can't.

After some research in the forums, I made my decision: I will go for an Audio-GD Ref 5 DF version. My headphone amp is a balanced LD MK6+, my speaker amp is a 10 years old SE tube amp which I guess need to be upgraded (maybe another balanced amp)  in couple years.
 
For the cable, because I really cannot audition them locally. It is hard for me to spend too much money for something I doubt. Now I have some Monster cables and some diy cables which look decent for me. Maybe I can DIY some cables to compare them. I believe that different conductor may change the sound, like silver with coper, but I really can not understand why there are so big difference (at least the price range) between same conductor cables.
 
Here is a website for DIYer:
http://diyaudioprojects.com/Power/power.htm
 
Thanks for your help, guys.

Now the question is: will you get that order in before someone comes along and makes you doubt the decision? 

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computerparts said:

That's a lot coming from someone who uses Blacksand cables. I'm not even going to bother arguing with you. You might as well buy everything else at radioshack while you're at it. Also, just because you can't hear the difference between cables doesn't mean that everyone else can't.

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*usED blacksand cables. Used many cables, FWIW. I have no problem admitting that. I am in the process of selling off cables in the hopes of getting a new source.
 
 
Just because you think you hear a difference doesn't mean it is actually there. So please, don't play that card.
 
Regardless, your suggestions of cable and transport matching at this budget point are ludicrous and a total waste of money as well as the OP's time. It is horrible advice.
 
Part of these forums is to help people get the most out of their budget.

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sokolov91 said:

*usED blacksand cables. Used many cables, FWIW. I have no problem admitting that. I am in the process of selling off cables in the hopes of getting a new source.
 
 
Just because you think you hear a difference doesn't mean it is actually there. So please, don't play that card.
 
Regardless, your suggestions of cable and transport matching at this budget point are ludicrous and a total waste of money as well as the OP's time. It is horrible advice.
 
Part of these forums is to help people get the most out of their budget.

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That is your OPINION. it is purely subjective. Do not try to pass it off as a fact. Some hear differences between cables, others don't. Since you're the latter, of course you will think others are just claiming to hear differences. Some people can't even hear the difference between sources and are happy with a mass market player. Cable and transport matching are not ludicrous at any budget IMO. The system is comprised of components. Each component contributes to the overall sound. Only when one takes this into account can they get the most out of their system.


I'll use cars as an analogy. Let's take a budget sports car such as a Camaro as an example. To get the most performance from that Camaro, you have to upgrade headers, intake, exhaust, etc... Each of those parts contributes to the overall performance. Example: intake adds 10hp. Can you upgrade only one of those parts and still get an increase in performance? Sure, but would you have as much performance as you would with everything upgraded? I highly doubt it. There is also the option of wasting money on a higher priced sports car. Let's say a corvette and leaving everything stock (which is basically what you're telling the OP to do). The fully upgraded Camaro will likely have more performance than the stock Corvette.


Now with that analogy said. Let's get back to audio. An interconnect would be somewhat equivalent to an intake. Where as an intake would contribute 10hp, the interconnect could contribute 10%. Now are you going to perceive that 10hp or 10% right off the bat? Some can and some can't. But you're more likely to notice the overall effect as more upgrades (headers, exhaust, etc...) or quality cables (power cord, digital cable) are added.

 

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computerparts said:

That is your OPINION. it is purely subjective. Do not try to pass it off as a fact. Some hear differences between cables, others don't. Since you're the latter, of course you will think others are just claiming to hear differences. Some people can't even hear the difference between sources and are happy with a mass market player. Cable and transport matching are not ludicrous at any budget IMO. The system is comprised of components. Each component contributes to the overall sound. Only when one takes this into account can they get the most out of their system.
 
The only facts are that your are wrong as far as any scientific measurements can tell, which eclipses a humans flawed perception. So, yes it is my opinion, but it is objective. You are working with magic as far as any facts are concerned, so don't pretend like I am the one talking BS. I also do not think people are claiming to hear differences because they are bad or evil. They are just human, and prone to errors. Maybe I came off as a little too rude in my first post, but it something I wasted a lot of money on when I really should have used that money on important pieces of equipment. I apologize if you took anything overly personal.
 
It IS ludicrous at any level, as it yields no difference. Like I suggest to others, throw your money at the homeless, or give to charity instead of perpetuating myths. If you have tons of money to fritter away, it is not so bad. If you are trying to stretch your budget to get the best sound possible, like I said, it is the worst possible advice.
 
I am 19, my hearing is as good as it is going to get. It is also most likely better than yours, assuming you are older.


I'll use cars as an analogy. Let's take a budget sports car such as a Camaro as an example. To get the most performance from that Camaro, you have to upgrade headers, intake, exhaust, etc... Each of those parts contributes to the overall performance. Example: intake adds 10hp. Can you upgrade only one of those parts and still get an increase in performance? Sure, but would you have as much performance as you would with everything upgraded? I highly doubt it. There is also the option of wasting money on a higher priced sports car. Let's say a corvette and leaving everything stock (which is basically what you're telling the OP to do). The fully upgraded Camaro will likely have more performance than the stock Corvette.
 
Yes, and that yields a measurable performance increase, however small, be it in horsepower, torque, handling, etc etc.

Now with that analogy said. Let's get back to audio. An interconnect would be somewhat equivalent to an intake. Where as an intake would contribute 10hp, the interconnect could contribute 10%. Now are you going to perceive that 10hp or 10% right off the bat? Some can and some can't. But you're more likely to notice the overall effect as more upgrades (headers, exhaust, etc...) or quality cables (power cord, digital cable) are added.

If your original argument/analogy made any sense when related to audio cables, this would be a logical conclusion, yes.

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Quite defensive we are. Please post links to back up your "facts" of immeasurable differences between cables. You're opinion, just like anyone else is subjective. That is why it is called an opinion. I'll leave it at that. Yes I am older but my hearing has always been above average, so no assumptions please. I'm amazed I can still clearly hear the whine of a crt considering the exposure to loud db's I had back in my car audio days.
 
It all comes down to how revealing your system is. From what I've seen, those who can't hear the differences between cables often have components that are not very revealing. With that said, a revealing system doesn't have to be expensive. Look at Emotiva, their gear is very revealing. Given your age, I find it a bit difficult to believe you spent a lot on cables. But then again, my definition of "a lot" probably is quite different than yours. So why did you sell your Blacksand cables? Your for sale post doesn't mention anything about you not being able to hear the difference.

"I am 19, my hearing is as good as it is going to get. It is also most likely better than yours, assuming you are older."

With high frequencies this is correct, but otherwise it is questionable. There is such a thing as a trained ear, and the benefit of years of experience. The fluid behind your ears keeps you from hearing many things.

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computerparts said:

Quite defensive we are. Please post links to back up your "facts" of immeasurable differences between cables. You're opinion, just like anyone else is subjective. That is why it is called an opinion. I'll leave it at that. Yes I am older but my hearing has always been above average, so no assumptions please. I'm amazed I can still clearly hear the whine of a crt considering the exposure to loud db's I had back in my car audio days.
 
It all comes down to how revealing your system is. From what I've seen, those who can't hear the differences between cables often have components that are not very revealing. With that said, a revealing system doesn't have to be expensive. Look at Emotiva, their gear is very revealing. Given your age, I find it a bit difficult to believe you spent a lot on cables. But then again, my definition of "a lot" probably is quite different than yours. So why did you sell your Blacksand cables? Your for sale post doesn't mention anything about you not being able to hear the difference.

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Look, this is getting ridiculous. OP has already succeeding in making a proper choice it would seem. So the thread should be over.
 
Your arguments are weak, and you are going around in a circle. Cables have nothing to do with how revealing a system is. I most likely have not spent anywhere near you on cables, luckily, but I have spent a fair amount, especially relative to my income and age. I have used all silver interconnects in my system, all copper, silver plated, gold and silver, no difference. They were fancy though.
 
Any formal measurements will show there is no measurable difference in cables that would result is audible changes. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to measure that. So, as far as it being my opinion, I don't see how you could logically come to that conclusion, as my "opinion" is measurements + personal experience, where as your opinion is magic + personal experience. One seems like it juuuuuust might be more credible than the other. You are the one spouting personal experiences based on nothing other than your personal perception, which is flawed, like any other human being. So, you are the one with the least (if any) credibility in this argument.
 
FWIW CRT tubes piss me off like no other, but I do congratulate you on still being able to hear them, honestly. I hope to have good hearing for a long time myself.
 
So, enough with the balderdash. If you are content believing what you do, great, but don't infect others with your disease. Especially the beginners. 

 
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yikes said:

"I am 19, my hearing is as good as it is going to get. It is also most likely better than yours, assuming you are older."

With high frequencies this is correct, but otherwise it is questionable. There is such a thing as a trained ear, and the benefit of years of experience. The fluid behind your ears keeps you from hearing many things.

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Very true, but a trained mind is also a valuable asset (to be used in conjunction with a trained ear), which few seem to have. The more aware one is of their own biological shortcomings, the closer they can be to perceiving things properly ( or as best as possible).

If you can't hear the difference between silver and copper, then more power to you. This goes along the lines of ignorance is bliss. I'm done with this thread.

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computerparts said:

I'm done with this thread.

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I think the OP was done a while ago. Just before it turned into a typical cable thread.

I for one am tired of Objectivist coming into every thread and crapping all over the place. They cry that they're doing it to protect the beginners. They need to realize that anyone going on-line needs to examine the source of any information before making a purchasing decision. Is it wise to go into a Forum devoted to Motorcycle Racing and take advice given there on what Moped to buy? Beginners need to take the time and expend the effort to read many opinions, and figure out that there are a whole range of opinions and experience levels and that not all recommendations are appropriate for their needs.
 
At some point the Protecting the Beginners argument becomes just that, an argument. Beginners need to be responsible for vetting their own information. That being said, I would strongly support having a Beginner Forum where questions could be asked by beginners and experienced users were encouraged to answer, but being sure to take into account who the advice is for, and what is appropriate.

 
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yikes said:

I for one am tired of Objectivist coming into every thread and crapping all over the place. They cry that they're doing it to protect the beginners. They need to realize that anyone going on-line needs to examine the source of any information before making a purchasing decision. Is it wise to go into a Forum devoted to Motorcycle Racing and take advice given there on what Moped to buy? Beginners need to take the time and expend the effort to read many opinions, and figure out that there are a whole range of opinions and experience levels and that not all recommendations are appropriate for their needs.
 
At some point the Protecting the Beginners argument becomes just that, an argument. Beginners need to be responsible for vetting their own information. That being said, I would strongly support having a Beginner Forum where questions could be asked by beginners and experienced users were encouraged to answer, but being sure to take into account who the advice is for, and what is appropriate.

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The less misinformation there is, the easier it is for people to make proper choices, on all levels of experience, though.
 
Yes, a Beginner Forum would be a great idea, but most threads asking for advice seem to be answered more or less with the best of peoples ability. Why some choose to type and post when their thoughts are utter rubbish for the given situation, I have no idea, and I am not entirely convinced a beginner thread would stop that from happening. 

I've been in High End Audio sales for 25 years, and I'm good at what I do. Why am I good? (just assume that I'm not blowing smoke) it's because I listen to the customer and make recommendations based upon their needs and feedback, not based only on my preferences.





What people should understand is that advice offered on this or any forum is worth what you paid for it. What the anti-audiophile crowd (I usually refer to them as Objectivist) does is shout down any mention of things (usually cables) that they don't believe in, stating their belief as absolute "Fact", whereas Audiophiles usually state their belief that cables make a difference as opinion.





Even if you believe that your opinion is backed by Science you should temper that opinion with the knowledge that Science is anything but static. What's that mean? Just because measurements currently say that there's no difference doesn't mean that they always will. There is the a chance that we have yet to figure out how to measure what some people claim to hear.





Audiophiles don't come out and call Objectivists insane for blindly believing that since the measurements indicate that there's no difference there isn't, whereas Objectivists commonly call audiophiles names for simply stating that they believe that there is a difference.





There needs to be more IMHO, IMO, IME thrown into the discourse, and less statements as ultimate fact.

 
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yikes said:

I've been in High End Audio sales for 25 years, and I'm good at what I do. Why am I good? (just assume that I'm not blowing smoke) it's because I listen to the customer and make recommendations based upon their needs and feedback, not based only on my preferences.

Well that is what a good salesman is supposed to do. But, they are also supposed to make money, so you have to make some concessions in how pure your help is, whether or not you know or not. IE, getting them to get good cables for that awesome system you helped them pick. You are not helping them at this point, anyway other than psychologically. But, you are being a good salesman and getting them to tack on more and more once they have already decided to spend. Looks like you are good at your job, congrats.



What people should understand is that advice offered on this or any forum is worth what you paid for it. What the anti-audiophile crowd (I usually refer to them as Objectivist) does is shout down any mention of things (usually cables) that they don't believe in, stating their belief as absolute "Fact", whereas Audiophiles usually state their belief that cables make a difference as opinion.

I am not an anti-audiophile, and very much consider myself an audiophile. I am all for the best sound experience possible. I am just totally against this religious fervor and zeal that cables and other black magic devices have become. It is counter productive, and a waste of our collective money, and time.



Even if you believe that your opinion is backed by Science you should temper that opinion with the knowledge that Science is anything but static. What's that mean? Just because measurements currently say that there's no difference doesn't mean that they always will. There is the a chance that we have yet to figure out how to measure what some people claim to hear.


That is the problem, a viewpoint is not a fact, a fact is a fact. So, you are trying to get misinformation to be treated on par with information, and held as equal in the mind of the masses. Why did you bother to go to school then? When you break it down to this level, it is ludicrous what cable believers try to prove in their statements. You cannot fight science with pseudo science. Just like you cannot fight fire with a fake fire.

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So as far as "us" objectivists being closed minded and ignorant, there is just no argument to be made. Sure science is not static, but look at how quickly electronics is taking of the world industries, using the same basic principals that cables just don't seem to be held too. Pretty interesting, crazy even.


Audiophiles don't come out and call Objectivists insane for blindly believing that since the measurements indicate that there's no difference there isn't, whereas Objectivists commonly call audiophiles names for simply stating that they believe that there is a difference.

No, you guys come out and call us ignorant, and that we can't simply say it doesn't exist because you hear it, which is not an argument. It is a temper tantrum. You hearing it, is not empirical evidence, because it is subject to you. You also refuse to any kind of testing, and fail when you do.



There needs to be more IMHO, IMO, IME thrown into the discourse, and less statements as ultimate fact.

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When discussing facts, there is no need for IMHO, IMO, or IME, because we are not only using personal beliefs and experience as the foundation for our point of view. Do you say, IMO the sun exists, I see it every day? Didn't think so.

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And as I said in another thread. All this experience you guys claim to, when stating you are able to pick up differences because you are trained,is total bs. The fact you think you can pick up things that don't exist, because you have spent lots of time picking them up (things that don't exist) you are able to better detect things that don't exist make no sense at all.

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Basically, you are ruining your entire reputation stating such things. If you have been a victim of your own mind for this whole time you have been info hi-fi, then what experience do you actually have?

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again this is not directed personally at you, so please do not take it that way.

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