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T1 v. DT880/600, Round 1 - Page 13

post #181 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by SleepyOne View Post

T1 is warmish in my setup. Certainly not as warm as HD650 for sure (nor do I want that frankly) but not cold either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylab View Post

I have said from the beginning, and still feel, that they are *slightly* to the warm side of neutral - very slightly.  But they are essentially neutral, IMO, and will be a reflection of the gear that they are connected to.  They indeed sound warmer via my RSA Stealth than they did via the solid-state "Blossom" amp I have been reviewing lately.

 

But anyone who considers the T1 to be "cold" must find the HD800 to be positively Arctic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by downsize View Post

     <snip>

 

       I would also agree they are slightly on the warm side of neutral. I found the bass to be tight and at the right level in the mix. I found the treble to be absolutely wonderful, with crazy amounts of detail, without ever sounding bright. It MAY could have used a light bit more treble extension.  But the midrange is where the magic happened for me. So extremely natural sounding, and just so much separation in the mix.

 

        <snip>

 

Maybe they have lain bare the truth too much, and we can't handle the truth.


I can't handle the truth...........
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MacedonianHero View Post

Agreed. I am with Skylab on this. The T1s are very slightly on the warm/lush side of neutral (I have confirmed this with many different setups and they all came back the same).

 

It could be that those who find the T1s as cold might have a different view of neutral. I do imagine that both the HD800s and K701s would be absolutely freezing just as mentioned above.


IIRC, I don't think anyone said the T-1 was downright cold.  There's a difference between being bright and cold. 

 

The 880s are known for being bright but I don't consider them to be cold.

 

And I want to make another point....   when you guys say it's 'warmish' or 'very slightly on the warm side', what is this relative to? 

 

Are you saying that the T-1 is warm compared to the 880s? 

 

It certainly isn't warm relative to the 650s.

 

It certainly is  warm relative to the 701s.

 

Is it warm relative to the 800s or the LCDs?

 

USG

 

post #182 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post




I can't handle the truth...........
 


IIRC, I don't think anyone said the T-1 was downright cold.  There's a difference between being bright and cold. 

 

The 880s are known for being bright but I don't consider them to be cold.

 

And I want to make another point....   when you guys say it's 'warmish' or 'very slightly on the warm side', what is this relative to?

 

Are you saying that the T-1 is warm compared to the 880s? 

 

It certainly isn't warm relative to the 650s.

 

It certainly is  warm relative to the 701s.

 

Is it warm relative to the 800s or the LCDs?

 

USG

 


I think we might be getting closer to the issue. For me, (and I think many others) I would consider the HD800s the best representation of neutral headphones (closely followed by the DT880/600, HD600, K701s), so we are in agreement then that the T1s are warm compared to those headphones?

 

The HD650s are coloured to be too warm (maybe even dark depending on the version) to be considered bang on neutral. So no, you are correct and the T1s are not warmer than the HD650s (no one ever claimed that they were). Are they warmer than the D2000/5000/7000, not a chance. But again, I would consider them coloured headphones that are tipped too far into the warm/lush region to be considered neutral (that's cool, I dig that sound too).

 

I can't comment on the LCD2s as I've never heard them. Skylab, your thoughts?

post #183 of 213

pataburd, thanks for this thread. It is never easy to go against the tide of opinion on this forum, but you have been honest about what you hear in your system. I appreciate that.

post #184 of 213

My comments about the T1 being very slightly warm are in reference to what I would consider to be flat or neutral in absolute terms.  But I think the issue may be that really we shouldn't try to give such a one-word description.  The T1 are slightly, to me warm in the MIDRANGE (and again just slightly).  They're not at all rolled off in the treble, so they could, I guess, be both slightly warm in the midrange and "bright" in the treble, although I don't really consider them to be so - I find them very flat in the treble.  But they are not rolled off in the treble.

 

I consider the LCD-2 to be the most natural sounding headphones I have heard.  The T1's are second in that regard, of the headphones I have owned.  But in comparison to LCD-2, the T1 do not exactly sound "warmer" - just different.

post #185 of 213


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylab View Post

My comments about the T1 being very slightly warm are in reference to what I would consider to be flat or neutral in absolute terms.  But I think the issue may be that really we shouldn't try to give such a one-word description.  The T1 are slightly, to me warm in the MIDRANGE (and again just slightly).  They're not at all rolled off in the treble, so they could, I guess, be both slightly warm in the midrange and "bright" in the treble, although I don't really consider them to be so - I find them very flat in the treble.  But they are not rolled off in the treble.

 

I consider the LCD-2 to be the most natural sounding headphones I have heard.  The T1's are second in that regard, of the headphones I have owned.  But in comparison to LCD-2, the T1 do not exactly sound "warmer" - just different.


Just so we can be on the same page, could you relate your descriptions of the T-1 to known quantities like the 701, 650, and 880 we've been talking about?

 

"Neutral in absolute terms" has little meaning until you attach it to a known quantity.  For instance, if you wanted a room painted in  a "neutral white", I wouldn't know exactly what you meant, but if you qualified that as egg shell white, I would have a much better idea of what you wanted.  The same applies to headphones.  When you say "neutral", I'm not sure what you mean until you give me your frame of reference.  There are some who consider the 650s to be neutral and the 701s bright and there are those who consider the 880s to be neutral and the 650 to be warm..... Verbal descriptions are all relative to a  frame of reference, so I'm hoping you can describe the T-1 relative to some of the other headphones we've discussed, so those of us who have heard those phones will have a better idea of what you mean.

 

To go even further, I'll give you my frame of reference.  I consider the 650s to have the most neutral and accurate sound of any headphone I've heard.  Some people say they are rolled off at the top, but when it comes to reproducing instruments and vocals or an orchestra, nothing  comes closer to the actual sound than the 650s (for me). They are my reference phone and I measure all other headphones by that yardstick.

 

USG

post #186 of 213

Cant agree downsize's comments more.

 

T1 has really "just right" perspective,"shapes" didn't deformed like other headphones.

post #187 of 213
Thread Starter 

My primary reference headphones are the UP-OCC K501.  From listening to them, I gauge the midrange integrity, timbre and overall coherency of other headphones.  Over the years, these characteristics have become the most critical to my ears, around which I judge a worthwhile listening experience.  

 

Therefore, with the K501, I am willing to make concessions in other areas, e.g. "absolute" frequency extension, levels of micro detail, etc.  The type(s) of concession(s) and degree(s) to which I am willing to concede will vary from product to product as well.

 

For the T1, which to me share historical/technical development closely akin to the DT880, I have come to associate the primary defining traits with detail, frequency extension and size of sound stage (not dimensionality--the ordering/coordinating of elements within credible 3-space, because that, to me, was never Beyerdynamic's strong suit).  

 

The K501 and the DT880/2003 (and now the DT880/600) compliment each other very well.  That's why I own both and consider each indispensable.  So, for example, I do not establish a reference for midrange with the DT880, nor a reference for "absolute" levels of detail with the K501.  I consider each set a "complete" and "balanced" design in their own respect.

 

Of course, I cannot help but cross-reference the T1 to my "Beyer references", which are the DT880/2003.  The DT880/2003 had surpluses of reserve at either frequency extreme, but a hollow midrange.  As a listener, I compensated by reveling in their seemingly boundless, airy highs and deep, plowing bass while "synthesizing"/extrapolating the midrange, call it a "virtual" midrange, from the constituent HF and LF extremes.  

 

And perhaps that is my sticking point, for better or worse.  Had I not already the K501, and now the DT880/600, on hand, then the T1 might have been satisfactory, may have met or possibly exceeded my prior "Beyer-biased" expectations.  

 

But the T1 do not meet my expectations, because to me they forfeit the strong suits, or previously established reference qualities of the DT880/2003, in order to mend the admitted "weaknesses" of same.  What I end up with is reminiscent of my experience with the DT880/250/2005: a design that comes close everywhere, but has just not quite arrived anywhere at the same time.  The T1 are close, in fact dangerously closer than ever, to the "perfect cans", but to me they have at the same time come adrift just a smidgen too far from what I would call the "perfect Beyers".  

 

Please note: I am NOT saying that the T1 sound like the DT880/250/2005, NOR am I saying that the T1 possess no technical or musical merit (lest I be unjustly indicted as a T1 "basher").  I am saying, however, that to me the finality of the design outcome for the T1 is analogously closer to the DT880/250/2005 than it is to the DT880/2003.  I am also saying that the T1 represent significant strides in the areas of detail retrieval, midrange integrity, coherency and sound field development compared to the DT880/2003--no question about that!  

 

But to me, and this is THE critical conjunction, what they [the T1] correspondingly lost in terms of "absolute" or perceived HF and LF extension outweigh what they significantly gained in comparison to the DT880/2003.  In terms of what establishes a musically satisfying listening experience for me, historically, WITH BEYERS, I simply am unable to make the kinds of concessions the T1 are apparently asking of me at this time.  

 

On the other hand, with respect to their design terminus, the DT880/600 are more to my personal liking, because they adequately address the weaknesses of the DT880/2003, yet do not--IMHO--simultaneously overly-compromise/delete their strengths.  And that is why, after reinserting the T1 into my gear train last night for not quite an hour, the DT880/600 were promptly unboxed and remained snugly astride my skull for the following two hours.

 

To me--and I say this again, the T1 sound "sheared off" at the frequency extremes, say with a "90-degree cut'; whereas the DT880/600 sound more "tapered off" at the frequency extremes, say with a "bevel cut".  In addition, the T1 also sound overly damped, tonally, compared to the DT880/600. In short, less open and inviting.  Because of these/this, the DT880/600 strike me as smoother, more musical and "airy"**; and the concessions they make elsewhere become tolerable for me--perhaps not for you, but for me.  : )  

 

[**The DT880/600 have a "transitional, funneling-out" sense of air, whereas the T1 have a more "stark, funneling-in" sense of air to them, if that makes any sense.  I think this is correlated with my perception of a too tightly/rigidly sprung tonal quality with the T1 as well.] 

 

[The stellar improvements in the T1's midrange just won't console me, I'm sorry (I'll apologize here as a courtesy, not a necessity), particularly with the UP-OCC K501 on hand.]  

 

And folks, for better or for worse, that's me; these are my listening preferences when it comes to Beyers.  End of story.

 

Well, almost. 

 

Believe me, I wish I were hearing what Skylab, MacedonianHero and other respected contributors to these forums are hearing; I am not.  Believe me, I had no problem--at all--spending $1000 (saved up from unemployment checks, no less) to purchase the T1 from the headphone manufacturing company with whom I have always felt perhaps the closest kinship and for whom I have maintained customer loyalty for many years.

 

And I remain an adamant supporter of the DT880/600 (in case you haven't already noticed!), so my kinship and loyalty to Beyerdynamic remain intact, solid as ever.  I will, however, absorb a $100 loss after reselling the T1, but I consider even that money well spent, due to the instructive and illuminating nature of the audition.

 

In closing (for this post, not necessarily for this thread), I would like to genuinely thank each and every one of you who subscribed, readers and writers.  It is both your relative conjunction with and opposition to my viewpoints that make me a more complete and even a "happier" head-fier.  : )


Edited by pataburd - 7/5/10 at 11:27pm
post #188 of 213
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by project86 View Post

pataburd, thanks for this thread. It is never easy to go against the tide of opinion on this forum, but you have been honest about what you hear in your system. I appreciate that.


P86,

Thank you.  Your words serve as a healing balm!  : )

PAB


Edited by pataburd - 7/5/10 at 6:43am
post #189 of 213

Interesting that you are still so fond of the 2003'880. Especially its almost total absence of kickbass was something that became an increasing issue in the course of my ownership.

 

I guess that is highly genre related though, an electronicahead has a different cognition than a classic- and folk listener.

post #190 of 213


 

Quote:
Originally Posted by upstateguy View Post


 


Just so we can be on the same page, could you relate your descriptions of the T-1 to known quantities like the 701, 650, and 880 we've been talking about?

 

"Neutral in absolute terms" has little meaning until you attach it to a known quantity.  For instance, if you wanted a room painted in  a "neutral white", I wouldn't know exactly what you meant, but if you qualified that as egg shell white, I would have a much better idea of what you wanted.  The same applies to headphones.  When you say "neutral", I'm not sure what you mean until you give me your frame of reference.  There are some who consider the 650s to be neutral and the 701s bright and there are those who consider the 880s to be neutral and the 650 to be warm..... Verbal descriptions are all relative to a  frame of reference, so I'm hoping you can describe the T-1 relative to some of the other headphones we've discussed, so those of us who have heard those phones will have a better idea of what you mean.

 

To go even further, I'll give you my frame of reference.  I consider the 650s to have the most neutral and accurate sound of any headphone I've heard.  Some people say they are rolled off at the top, but when it comes to reproducing instruments and vocals or an orchestra, nothing  comes closer to the actual sound than the 650s (for me). They are my reference phone and I measure all other headphones by that yardstick.

 

USG


Well, what I had at the time I got the T1 was the 2005 DT880/600.  I thought the T1 was definitely lusher and slightly warmer in the mids than the 880 (which I liked but always felt were a little cool through the midband).  I also felt the T1 had a slightly smoother treble than the 880, with less of a mid-treble boost, and more top-end extension.

 

More importantly, though, I felt the T1 was far, far more transparent sounding than the 880/600.  But that does not have to do with the tonal question you asked.

post #191 of 213
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickchen View Post

Interesting that you are still so fond of the 2003'880. Especially its almost total absence of kickbass was something that became an increasing issue in the course of my ownership.

 

I guess that is highly genre related though, an electronicahead has a different cognition than a classic- and folk listener.

NC,

Probably, as a listener, I have always valued ultimate extension over "smack" when it came to bass.  If I could get both in a single package that would be nice.  But since the T1 seem to provide more kick bass than deep bass extension, and the DT880/2003 more deep bass extension than kick bass, I tend to prefer the latter.

 

For my ears, the DT880/600 strike a better balance in terms of providing an ordinate amount of percussive bass, but without an inordinate loss of deep bass.

 

You make a good point, too, about a listener's ears being genre-specifically "tuned" or "poised"  Mine are probably more "acoustically" than "electronically" tuned, so bass punch becomes secondary to bass extension, if I must give up one for the other.  

 

PAB 
 


Edited by pataburd - 7/5/10 at 10:29am
post #192 of 213

Patrick one thing I learned in audio is that no one  taste are alike. I heard Wilson speakers and never liked them. I owned Genesis V 15K speakers and they were not my cup of tea so I sold them. Your enjoyment is most important. I love the T1 and it has become my favorite can. I enjoy the transparency detail and for me it does everything right, But at least you have what makes you enjoy the music. Thanks for your honest input and it is always great to hear other opinions/

post #193 of 213

 

Personally I believe T1's new two-layer diaphragm makes things not easily go well as old beyer user expect.

 

post #194 of 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank I View Post

Patrick one thing I learned in audio is that no one  taste are alike. I heard Wilson speakers and never liked them. I owned Genesis V 15K speakers and they were not my cup of tea so I sold them. Your enjoyment is most important. I love the T1 and it has become my favorite can. I enjoy the transparency detail and for me it does everything right, But at least you have what makes you enjoy the music. Thanks for your honest input and it is always great to hear other opinions/


Very, very true, and it's good that we have people weighing in on both sides here.

post #195 of 213
Thread Starter 

The T1 are almost sold, and the DT880/600 are slated for shipment to ZX Amateur Cables for a UP-OCC copper ("Nucleotide") re-cable either tomorrow or Wednesday, God willing.  : )

 

It'll just be me and the UP-OCC K501 for a week or so.  : ) 


Edited by pataburd - 7/5/10 at 11:13am
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