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Some thoughts about evidence and subjectivity - Page 3

post #31 of 48
LeePerrys about CPUS... They peak once the thermal paste used has reached it highest potential... burn in of thermal paste is very very real and measureable by thermometre Then you have to go for it with maximal voltage the CPU will take and accurate cooling. that will give you the highest overclock if you have sub zero cooling anyway... But higher voltage does shorten the lifetime of the CPU and will make it calculate wrongly quicker then a CPU that runs on lower voltage.

Burn in on the CPU there is really nothing going on there. What would that be??? I have never noticed such effect. I have been able to test settings on my mainboard and such, finding memory that synergize well and such but no the CPU does get worse and worse generally.

As for burn in is there anything on a DAC that could benefit from burn in. Not meaning warming up say if I run it 24/7? I am trying to figure out exactly how much is psychoaccoustics and if new DACs is a good way to try this out. As long as it´s warm not that much that can possible change?
post #32 of 48
Great thread. All posts with something interesting, none obnoxious.
Some men prefer blonds, some brunettes, some redheads.
Some men prefer Stax, some Senns,, some Beyers.
(did not mean to be sexist).
post #33 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by bangraman View Post
I for one am sick and tired of the unsatisfying way most halfway civilised arguments end: "Well, I think we'll agree to disagree because it's my ears that counts in the end". That is rubbish. If you're going to argue on the basis of your own total uncontrolled subjectivity, don't bring the damned argument in the first place.
Very true. This and other posts on this thread have well reasoned words.

Also have you ever had
""but I have had ## years experience in the industry so what I heard must be there"

The problem is some people either do not give a damn for objectivity or have an ego driven approach giving a genuine belief that their own subjective opinion passes for fact. A quick google search to a few self reinforcing opinions is all that is required for a 'scentific' justification. And they are immune to placebo effect.

Science is surely just as much about having an inquisitive mind set and a rigorous, self critical approach as it is about regurgatating facts and figures.

This is an open forum, and it is great to have such a large melting pot of opinion. However a lot of people have entrenched views or are just playing to a group of likeminded peers. It is when you don't realise this till late in the fact that you may have just waisted hours of your time.
post #34 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by leeperry View Post
mostly because SQ cannot be measured IMHO...THD/SNR/IMD don't mean jack in the end.

you can use a colorimeter to calibrate a video display, a measurement microphone to do a room correction EQ, a luxmeter to check a videprojector light homogeneity...but you can't measure "SQ".
Well said.
post #35 of 48
I will sell you my 'experimenter expectancy' effect for $300 per ft.
post #36 of 48
I was always 50/50 on the issue of burn-in. I felt it may make minor improvements but never enough to affect the overall tonal balance of a piece of equipment. It made sense with headphones - less so with amps.

I just received a new cheap tube amp from ebay - being from China I was about to toss it in the bin because the balance was shifted way to the right. Swapping tubes from left to right made no difference - when I put the headphone on from left to right it shifted way to the left. Burning it in for over 2 days did indeed solve the issue - I don't know what was being burned in - it definitely wasn't me.

My new D7000 - The more I burn it in, the more sibilant they seem to become. It is in fact starting to bother me - something that didn't trouble me when I first heard them from the box. I cannot rule out placebo - but it is a case of negative burn-in.

I absolutely hated my K701's when I first bought them - I find them glorious now - perhaps they have been burning in or I have been deluded. I'd rather believe I am not deluded. My subjective experiences is leading me towards the plausibility of the "burn in" phenomenon. This is just my opinion.
post #37 of 48
Be 'subjective' all you want, just don't use it as evidence when you're trying to argue with someone. No one minds (except maybe your wife, kids, and other worried people) if you wear a triangle on your head and think it is making things sound better. Just don't preach it to me cause it's obviously an absurd fantasy.

I mean, imagine the engineering world suddenly became riddled with subjective people. You'd start seeing leg warmers on support bars, and sub-standard building materials just because someone randomly though 'I think they're stronger this way.' You know what, you can build your house based on subjective ideas, but I want mine built on empirically tested, objective results.

The point is, it's okay to be cooky and think things sound better in a special listening chair you have. Just don't spend money on random untestable fancies, or encourage other people to. It's demand that creates snake-oil businesses, like someone telling you your special listening chair is okay, but they've designed this special chair specifically for listening using high tech lasers and it'll only cost your 10,000 dollars but be sooooo worth it.
post #38 of 48
Love the first post ... great fun!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AFK View Post
Subjectivity = placebo effect

Case closed.
Sorry, but no. Subjectively = the only way you ever perceive anything.

The sound suffers both objective and subjective effects on the way in,
and you never really know which is which.

Don't give up on the complexity of the truth in trying to be objective.
post #39 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chef View Post
Be 'subjective' all you want, just don't use it as evidence when you're trying to argue with someone. No one minds (except maybe your wife, kids, and other worried people) if you wear a triangle on your head and think it is making things sound better. Just don't preach it to me cause it's obviously an absurd fantasy.
You see, that's the problem with objectivists. I as a subjectivist have come in to offer my opinion, no more. Acknowledging the truth of fallibility in my observations - truthful more, I can never be. Only to be besieged upon by delusional words never spoken - Then of fantasy, you accuse me of.

With you, I shall converse no more. Talk to the hand.
post #40 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Uthadude View Post
This is a great subject. I’m kinda tired of reading the ‘is the HD600 better than the HD650?’ kind of threads. Thanks Zelak. Bangraman, I hope you will reply again also.

I have some questions I’m hoping someone can address.

Let’s assume perfect or even textbook close hearing is not that common. Each of us has a slightly different hearing response curve. A certain head-fier has a love for oboes, but he doesn’t realize that his hearing is down 5dB at that frequency range where one would normally hear oboes. Every pair of headphones he has tried make oboes sound muffled and therefore he finds unsatisfactory. Then he stumbles onto the Sony Model 5B, which unbeknownst to him, has a response curve that has a 5dB shelf in that same ‘oboe range’. Voila! He has found the perfect headphone. (And depending on his fanboy quotient, tells the rest of us these are the best headphones in the world, and we need to get a pair, he knows since he has tried every pair made.) Actually, he has subjectively stumbled onto a hp that ‘equalizes’ the sound for his hearing. Right? Is the result any less valid than if Bangraman or myself did it by having an audiologist check our ears and then we looked for the measurably symmetrical headphone?

Now along comes another head-fier, tries the Model 5B’s and finds them honky in some way, they sound like crap, in fact he measures them and lo and behold the response curve verifies that they are crappy headphones. How can people have such bad taste he thinks.

One step further. What if the Sony Model 5B didn’t exist, and he instead stumbled onto an audiophile quality graphic equalizer? While playing with it, he found that the ‘reference’ headphones which everyone says are the cat’s meow, but sounded as bad as all the rest to him, suddenly sounded incredible when he inadvertently boosted the ‘oboe frequencies’ by 5dB? Has he not effectively accomplished the same thing; frequency matching so to speak? We know that all the music we listen to, with the exception of live music, has been EQ’d to death before we get it, yet EQ’ing by us after the fact is pretty much disparaged by the general masses here. Why is one better than the other? Is not EQ’ing the soundwaves kind of analogous to what my eyeglasses are doing for the lightwaves? (yes, admittedly good vision is easier to quantify than good sound).

Could any of this be actual and even commonplace? Might this type of thing partially explain some of the wildly divergent opinions we read here, or am I chasing the wrong rabbit . . .again?
You are chasing the wrong rabbit. Taking your example with someone down on -5db at "oboe freq" (OF). If this person attends a live concert with OF - this person will still hear the OF at -5db. Providing for accurate recording of source, if the headphone is boosted at OF by 5db - it will sound inaccurate as it was heard live at -5d - a boost of 5db means he hears it at 0db - which is inaccurate to the concert - heard at -5db. Defective hearer still hears this inaccurate 5db boost.

Paying for a hearing test will not aid you in your pursuit of musical enjoyment. Everyone has a built in audio reference that is as perfect as can be. Its called reality. I challenge all to emerge from their cocoons and to venture out and just close your eyes and absorb the natural sounds around you - the subway trains, buses, footsteps, birds - everything, every sound, savor them, all of them.

Why do some enjoy some phones more than others? Subjective preference - nothing more. The oboe player having referenced an entire musical career with an oboe blowing at the ears - referencing the rest of the band at a further distance will think the 5db boost at OF is the finest headphone ever assembled by mankind.

That is just my opinion, nothing more.
post #41 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP Wild View Post
You see, that's the problem with objectivists. I as a subjectivist have come in to offer my opinion, no more. Acknowledging the truth of fallibility in my observations - truthful more, I can never be. Only to be besieged upon by delusional words never spoken - Then of fantasy, you accuse me of.

With you, I shall converse no more. Talk to the hand.
Why are you writing as if you were Yoda?
post #42 of 48
Wanted to appear wise like Yoda... but I was thinking more Shakespeare (I recently watched the Merchant of Venice with Al Pacino and loved the language)... I'll keep working on it.

... hey did y'all know that saying "when you prick me, do I not bleed" comes from that Shakespeare - I never knew. Its so sad that my sphere of knowledge revolves around Hollywood.
post #43 of 48
You're right, that is sad. Rectify it by reading King Lear

PS: Shakespeare was all about objective testing of sound reproduction equipment.
post #44 of 48
I might just wait untill it comes out in Hollywood... maybe with Robert De'niro in the starring cast... If the production values are as good as Merchant of Venice..Should be fantastic.......Oops.

Talk to the hand.
post #45 of 48
I didn't think it was possible to have a subjective view of the existence of something, but my objective view tells me there's at least 5 movie versions of every Shakespearean play ever made. You don't need to wait if you just stop living in your fantasy world where all classics haven't already been made into movies. ^^
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