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How do you feel about cables? - Page 4

post #46 of 66
10/16/03 at 8:17pm
Quote:
Originally posted by fewtch
How is the Senn 600 stock cable worse than the MDR-CD3000 stock cable, Grado SR-225/SR-325 stock cable, etc...
Good question. I guess the only response is that no one has swapped out cables on any of these cans and reported on how much, if any, difference it makes. It is much easier to change some cables on a set of cans made to facilitate easy swapping of cables. The single ground wire on the Sonys make it very difficult.

As to my view: I think that just about any set of cans can have their suond improved by swapping out the cheap cables used for them. Saying that, I feel that the Sony CD3K would benefit the most since they do share a common ground versus separate ground wires like the Senns do. The problem is doing the change. If I had some decent tools I would change mine out just to see how they sounded afterwards.
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post #47 of 66
10/16/03 at 8:56pm
I know of some other members that had replaced AT cables, Beyer cables etc...nobody has bother though in replace what you like, so the CD3000 cable remain there for the sake of that everybody like it.....nor everybody have found one better suited for it, I know it exists but nobody seems to be worry about that...the Beyers IIRC the guy do not like the coiled cord, and the AT was a broken cable, replace by necessity, IIRC after those replacement the sound improved also, just do a search on the subject if you like, that was long time ago....
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post #48 of 66
10/16/03 at 9:07pm
Thread Starter 
I'd like to put out a challenge to someone with enough cash around here to try this:

Disassemble the HD600 Cardas cable. Cut off the insulation on the outside, then the insulation on the wires, and strip the cable down all the way to the bare conductors -- including the plugs on both ends -- desolder them and have a good look.

What I want to know: Has Cardas inserted a capacitor, resistor or something in the signal path that can affect the sound, other than just the cable (as it should be).

I don't think anyone will take up this challenge (sadly) but I'd really be curious to see the results, together with close up pictures of the entire cable, end to end, completely disassembled.

Sounds pointless, or do I sound paranoid and skeptical? Well, try it and tell me that I was just too skeptical -- I'll believe you. It could always be reassembled with good quality heatshrink tubing and quality solder, and SQ probably unharmed.

If nobody does this, maybe I'll do it eventually... all I need is a bit of a cash windfall coming in from somewhere. And you bet I'll measure capacitance and impedance of the cable as well, and compare it to the stock HD600 cable.
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post #49 of 66
10/16/03 at 9:41pm
I'd love to take apart a Cardas HD600. I seriously doubt there is anything but wire in the signal path - you could determine that without disassembly, just use a meter.

Here's an interesting article:

http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/...bleFaceoff.htm
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post #50 of 66
10/16/03 at 9:45pm
Quote:
Originally posted by fewtch
Sounds pointless, or do I sound paranoid and skeptical?
Yes, yes, and yes. I don't think thay anyone here is going to risk ruining their Cardas cable to find out if they stuck some passiave component into the wiring. Most are happy just knowing that they sound better and like them better. I doubt that Cardas stoops to trickery to get their cables to sound better, but that's just IMHO. They are a well established company with a track record for good cables and parts. I personally wouldn't care if they inserted magic pixie dust into their cables to make them sound better, just as long as they sounded better. (VD uses a proprietary pixie dust BTW.)
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post #51 of 66
10/16/03 at 9:52pm
Thread Starter 
For whoever's registered at the NY Times website:

http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/...es/23down.html
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post #52 of 66
10/16/03 at 10:22pm
These are the types of tests I detest. The ones where they purposefully set you up with an expectation that they purposefully don't fulfill. In order to do ACCURATE testing they need to do the testing without telling the people what they changed from and to so that the people's expectations are not deceitfully raised. Just setup a test in which you had a panel of people with familiar music, and just let them know to report what they hear. No build up about some uber-cable they are going to demo to them and see if they can hear a difference. Too much pressure. They also need to limit the testing to 2-3 cables at a time. Too many cables and you start forgetting what you heard. They also need to ID the cables as A, B, and C so that the listeners can specifically request to hear A versus B, or B versus C, or whatever. All this test demonstrates is that the human mind CAN be manipulated to think it hears differences. Medical people know this and pusposefully avoid skewing the results by telling their patients too much. They are told that they could receive either the real thing, or a placebo. They don't tell show them a pill and talk about how good it is and how powerful a drug it is when they want accurate and unbiased results back. Accurate testing is done when the listeners have no idea what they are listening to in a system, but have control of which cables they listen to so that they can make direct comparisons.
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post #53 of 66
10/16/03 at 11:35pm
No need. Bring them by my place and wire them up to my TDR; it'll tell you everything without damaging the cables.

Quote:
Originally posted by fewtch
I'd like to put out a challenge to someone with enough cash around here to try this:

Disassemble the HD600 Cardas cable. Cut off the insulation on the outside, then the insulation on the wires, and strip the cable down all the way to the bare conductors -- including the plugs on both ends -- desolder them and have a good look.

What I want to know: Has Cardas inserted a capacitor, resistor or something in the signal path that can affect the sound, other than just the cable (as it should be).

I don't think anyone will take up this challenge (sadly) but I'd really be curious to see the results, together with close up pictures of the entire cable, end to end, completely disassembled.

Sounds pointless, or do I sound paranoid and skeptical? Well, try it and tell me that I was just too skeptical -- I'll believe you. It could always be reassembled with good quality heatshrink tubing and quality solder, and SQ probably unharmed.

If nobody does this, maybe I'll do it eventually... all I need is a bit of a cash windfall coming in from somewhere. And you bet I'll measure capacitance and impedance of the cable as well, and compare it to the stock HD600 cable.
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post #54 of 66
10/17/03 at 12:20am
Well said Doug.

Anyone up for some double-blind testing at the next Seattle meet? If someone can pay for parts (I'm broke), it would be very easy to put together two identical-looking but very different-sounding cables, without any resistors or similar components.
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post #55 of 66
10/17/03 at 12:50am
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post #56 of 66
10/17/03 at 12:52am
Copying and pasted copyrighted text == bad and not allowed around here...
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post #57 of 66
10/17/03 at 2:24am
Threads like this should be banned. Nothing good ever comes out from it.
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post #58 of 66
10/17/03 at 2:34am
Quote:
Originally posted by eric343
Well said Doug.
Thanks Eric. I guess all that a test like that proves is that the people they chose are more ruled by their minds and expectations than their ears. You could sell them anything if you worked in an audio store.

You could also setup the testing place so that the person could only have access to the CDP and not even see the amp or it's posterior parts. That way they would have access to change discs and volume, but no clue as to which cable is hooked up. Only the tester implementer behind the screen would know what is going on, and they shouldn't have access to the person being tested. Just have a third person act as mediator between subject and tester. That way they can't influence them in any way. All they do is say when the cable swap has been done and is ready to be fired up again. Have some cables that are listed on paper as A, B or C so that it is kept straight by the tester, and then just change around what the subject wants. It would be rather time consuming to do correctly, but if only 3-4 people can do it the results would be the most revealing to date.

Best of all with the testing. I would be all for it and I hope you still have the Nites around when it goes down.
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post #59 of 66
10/17/03 at 4:00am
Quote:
[i] Medical people know this and pusposefully avoid skewing the results by telling their patients too much. They are told that they could receive either the real thing, or a placebo. They don't tell show them a pill and talk about how good it is and how powerful a drug it is when they want accurate and unbiased results back. Accurate testing is done when the listeners have no idea what they are listening to in a system, but have control of which cables they listen to so that they can make direct comparisons. [/B]
ServinginEcuador's point is well taken here, user bias is a very important confounding factor in any subjective comparison. Enough medical trials have shown that merely telling a patient he/she is receiving a treatment is enough to improve symptoms in many clnical situations. This to a point, that the overall symptom score in both the placebo and treated arms of many trials the patient's symptoms get better. Moreover, as in medical trials, the intervention itself has an effect on the response; i.e. the fact that an individual is participating in a trial also would increase the level of attention he/she pays to his/her analysis of the sound. The appropriate way to test the cables would be to observe the response without the subject being aware he is being tested, i.e. leave headphones around and see which one people go back to after an initial listen.
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post #60 of 66
10/17/03 at 5:49am
Quote:
Originally posted by ServinginEcuador
For those who claim that it is always in ou(r) heads, I would say that a good comparison of certain aspects of the music can greatly reduce the placebo effect or my subjective view of something due to price, hype, etc. If one knows what they are looking for in their music, is very familiar with this music, and then compares how it sounds using different ICs, this is a fair judgement of their sound. When the drums sound flat, a piano sounds like a cheap keyboard, when the attack or decay are messed up or missing, this is not as subjective as something more vague like how "musical" the ICs sound, or how much "emotional response" one gets from a particular set of ICs. Stick to something more concrete in the recording and sound and make observations on that which is way less subjective and we will all benefit from reading the reviews as such.
ServinginEcuador,

While evaluating "musicality" and the degree of "emotional response" is always subjective and not perfectly reliable, believing that subjectivity can be miraculously avoided by listening for "objective" criteria is the safest path to erroneous results. As long as a human listener is involved, any evaluation is necessarily subjective. This is unavoidable. Fortunately.
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