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A little OT, but a god would necessarily have no 'control' over the universe whatsoever. A "god" could be nothing other than the laws of nature. I don't think that's what most people mean when they say they believe in god. In fact, often you hear believers refer to a "personal god" - science really leaves no room for that.

My point was that in both cases believing entails rejecting science and therefore there's no scientific basis to argue.

Metaphysical. Science can't explain it. Any way, we should keep this to PMs .

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Yes, I'm aware of the branch of philosophy and metaphysical arguments might attempt to create a safe-haven for belief in god. However, you will find that such arguments will need to be reduced to a description of a 'god' that very few ascribe to as mentioned above.

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Not everything passes frequency response the same way. Nothing is perfectly linear.

The difference with headphones and amps is that you can pass a signal through them and measure the output extremely accurately. Take a look at Stereophile's measurements of speakers and amps. You will find lovely graphs of the responses and output. The graphs can be laid over each other, too, demonstrating the actual difference between components.

You can also do this yourself. There are lots of oscilloscopes, spectrum analyzers, computer programs, etc. that let you test anything. This has been possible for decades. Used gear is cheap these days and you could put together a pretty nice lab for under $1,000. It might not be world class, but it can measure differences several magnitudes of order higher than human perception.

The problem is that no one has ever been able to use this equipment to measure a significant difference between cables. Ever. Like I've said before, there are tens of millions of dollars at stake. Anyone who solves the cable issue stands to make a fortune. So why hasn't someone used test gear to really nail things down?

Also, when something is not understood, you usually find that known measurements are slightly off. Everyone knows the relationship between resistance, inductance and capacitance. If there was another force at work, you'd end up with, for instance, a value for resistance that was off and unexplanable in terms of capacitance or inductance.

If that were happening with cables, there might still be a mystery as to the fourth force, but there would be undeniable proof that something else was going on. If that were the case, I could accept that there's something unknown to cables.

However, the only conclusion is that if there is something else out there, it must operate in a way that has no effect on resistance, capacitance or inductance. That is very unlikely.

Further, if another mysterious force were at play, it would show up in other electronic gear. How can electricity know whether it is in audio gear or not? The effect would have to show up in lightbulbs, electric motors, and everything else. That's why I started the other thread abou whether cable "differences" could be detected in gear other than audio. So far, cable believers have steered clear of that thread. If a power cord makes such a difference, then using that cord with a lightbulb ought to throw off a different sort of light. We have very sophisticated light meters and sensors - like the one in your camera - that can detect very small differences. For example, you could take a photo of a lightbulb powered with each cable and feed both shots into your computer. You could use software to detect incredibly slight differences in color or brightness. If you could demonstrate consistent differences between cables with a lightbulb, then cable claims might gain credibility.

The problem is that no matter which angle you look at cables from, the same answer keeps coming up: the difference is psychological. The difference is a mind trick we play on ourselves.

Throwing out the "great mystery" hypothesis just doesn't cut it. There are mysteries left, but the problem is that those can all be inferred or partially known. Dark matter was detected for the first time a few weeks ago. The difference with dark matter is that it was inferred from known results and has been hypothesized for years. Same with other subatomic particles. It also happens with diseases. An answer might not be known, but inferences and bits and pieces can be drawn out.

Cables have absolutely none of that. There are no mysterious results or anything out of the ordinary in tests. There's nothing to go on. Nothing at all.

Then when you control for psychological factors, no one can tell the difference. Of course, that gets blamed on inadequate test procedures, but in light of all other evidence, it just points even moreso at psychological factors.

If you want further circumstantial evidence, look at the shady, fly-by-night nature of a lot of cables. It attracts a bad element - they know there are enormous profits and that they can BS away with explanations.

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Don't put words in my mouth.

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How do you measure differences in soundstage in cables? How do you measure something that doesn't exist?

As far as cables are concerned sound stage is an effect produced by differences between the two stereo channels. So I would say that you should monitor the electrical current running through the cable... actually I would suggest this is the way you can measure anything to do with cables since that is all cables do. If it can't be measured in this way it is all in your head.

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I really fail to understand what you are talking about. Are you suggesting that anyone believes that the only factor in headphone performance is the quoted frequency response range? You do know that a manufacturer can write just about anything they want as the range and often do.

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Buying a headphone that happens to quote a frequency response of up to 50khz, and buying a headphone because it has a frequency response of up to 50khz are different things.


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You seem very confused, most of your post made very little sense. If two components are tested and show that they are producing an identical result and I am failing at DBT, why on earth would I think otherwise? It doesn't matter what the component is, and I would wager that many people here would be amazed how much of a waste of money most amps/DACs are. But one step at a time.

Other than the source material being different: lossy versus Lossless (which I think makes less difference in the end at those resolutions), you listened to different sources.

I was a huge MD nut back in the day and nothing anyone could say would dissuade that it isn't the best thing since the cheese slicer. Well, there is a reason: MDs are recorded with a few things in mind. Many people have said the MD sounds better than the CD.

Firstly, MDs codec brings out dynamics - bass and warmth. But more than that, it is played on two difference source machines. That alone would wreck the argument that you heard difference. In fact, the PCM recording from an MD player with full-resolution 16 bit audio should sound different than the PCM recording on a CD from A DIFFERENT SOURCE.

Sony went to massive lengths to promote their platform at the expense of reality.

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My apologies for bringing up a topic that has been beaten to death but the more I read about DBT done for cables the more I feel its all snake oil.

The fact that in all the DBT that I have read so far, no one could distinguish between the use of cheap cables or expensive cables.

I can easily make out the differences between the IEMs/headphones in my collection as well as differences between the amps that I have used so if there were any great differences caused by cables, a listener should have easily been able to tell if a cable was different or not. Judging from the innumerable DBT tests that have shown no-one able to discern the differences between cables leads me to believe that whatever difference is there is slight to non existent.

And if so what is the point in spending so many $$$ for cables ? Its OK to spend on a system worth $25k or something but I see people buying $400 cables for a $500 headphone (HD 650) and they even claim massive differences in sound ! Is the HD650 cable so bad that better cables sound much better (contrary to all the DBT tests I have seen so far !).

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"God is a concept by which we measure our pain."
~ John Lennon

Just wanted to bring this debate back to show how the musical relates to the metaphysical

I believe in fully debating the effectiveness of high-dollar cables, as well as whether or not God actually exists:

Any time, anywhere, bring it on!

We're all right, and we're all wrong

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It makes a difference, it's not measurable, and that is the way we like it

I didn't believe in cables -- they just defy physics as I understand. But with so many people claim they make difference, sometimes quite drastic ones, I couldn't help but to try for myself.

A year ago I bought three cables for HD650/600: Cardas, Equinox, Zu. I did quite extensive testing with both my HD650 and HD600. Honestly I couldn't hear any difference, even if I force my mind to think "... ok Equinox should be more open as it was claimed to be ... Cardas should be warmer ... Zu should be edgy ..."
To make sure I didn't have a listening fatigue, I rested a few days without listening any headphone, then started the test all over. Still couldn't hear any difference. So to me these cables make no difference.


Don't even care to test power cable, it just make no sense at all.

^^ I guess this is the reason why no DBT for cables has ever shown a discernible difference between cables.

I believe even Uncle Erik had a few HD650 replacement cables and even he couldn't find any differences in them. If this is so then these cable companies are really taking people for ride and doing something very unethical.

No wonder no one has been able to claim the $1 million prize offered by James Randi to prove a difference between $7500 cables are better than $80 monster cables. I mean come on anyone can easily tell the difference between a Sennheiser 650 and a Radioshack headphone so its should be very easy to get $1000000 IF cables actually did make a difference.

Whats most shocking however is that head-fi has actually SAVED me some money !!!!

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I would humbly suggest that you try them for at least a month at a time, then after alternating for another month, switch back to the first one. You might be able to discern a difference at that point; that's what it takes for me. Trying to compare song to song or album to album in a single sitting never works for me.

^^ But if the difference is so subtle that you have do so much to find out some difference then whats the point in spending so much on a cable ? These cables are not some $100 cables, they retail for more like $300 - $400.

I would rather spend $400 more on an amp as that would make a much bigger difference than a cable.

Or else use that amount to buy a better headphone. Don't you think its ridiculous to spend that much money on cables if you have to struggle to hear the difference ?

^^i agree with prolonged time of listening to cables first. after that it's time for DBT and no excuses. excludes people who don't need to know for sure whether they are just imagining things, don't mind flashing money down the toilet or when buying for looks. this pretty much excludes all audiophiles

Paradigms.

Anias Nin said, We dont see things as they actually are, we see things as we are.

I see this truism every day in all walks of life. This phenomenon is a characteristic of being human. All our sensual experiences passes through a process of filters, buffers and memory circuits before we pronounce our take on it, our position . This is driven by primitive instincts, experience, some assumptions, I like it , I dont like it and I am indifferent.

The definition of pain is an uncomfortable physical sensation AND emotional experience.

Hearing is subject to nerve stimulus registration and our emotional interpretation of that signal.

To answer a question whether this stimulus is painfull we have to compute and this is where we start to differ, one mans pain is anothers pleasure / we are different, no wrong answers. A lifetime of variables creates our unique answer.

It is no different with hearing and deciding whether one signal is more likable than the other, needs computing/ here we differ and again no wrong answers.

What DBT does is to remove the emotion and computing thus testing purely the acoustic nerve and its sensitivety. It blatantly exposes our acoustic nerves limitations in discriminating differences in signals without our computors input to help us discriminate.


People make claims, some are true some are false, some know they are false(lies) and some honestly believe their claims are true. What do we call the last group, fools, ignorants, uneducated, human ?

Quackery perpetrated by liers and cheats conjour up a deep hatred in most of us because it hurts, sometimes kills and is always unjust.
But there are many people caught up in quacks and unknowingly stick to their gunns for very good reasons, visit the site quackwatch. com and read the psychology of quackery.

Beliefs can be downright terrible (9/11) science graphs and statistics can be misinterpreted and experience and preference needs to be questioned / comparison hurts none as long as there are no claims and petty bickering.

This very polarity extends to much more than cables an Hi Fi . Why are we so obsessed with being the best and claiming such. I just think for some this issue detracts from the enjoyment of music and harmony and exposes some unfortunate emotional need to prove that they have accumulated the undoubtable best audio gear and hear the music so much better and superior to most plebs and lesser humans.

As I drove home in the rain today in my unsuperior car listening to my unsuperior audio system playing Eva Cassidy singing Wonderfull World I really could not care about the fact that I did not go with the Jenna wire recable job as opposed to the VDH magnum
wire I salvaged, I could hear Her above the rain and it made the dreadfull trip wonderfull.

My take on things enjoying the shade.