How many of you actullay believe IE8 burn in effect?
Jul 22, 2009 at 6:10 AM Post #76 of 208
Ed Seedhouse;5867945 said:
MaoDi;5867896 said:
Technology tells me that a dynamic driver has a diaphragm, Science tells me the material and the way the diaphragm moves causes it to loosen and become more flexible being able to produce higher and lower frequencies with less effort. Quote:


What science would that be? Can you provide a link to it?

Well, actual measurements do not show the effects you claim science should show, and no one has ever been able to distinguish this "clearly audible" difference in a properly conducted blind test.



Well no, it didn't. It came in my opinion from a tragic misunderstanding of science which is, alas, widespread in our society.

It is interesting that in a topic which invites discussion of this topic, only the side of the "believers" in "burn in" seem to get upset when their views are contradicted.



Can you show me these measurements of sound of the earphone and "evidence" that claims dynamic drivers and diaphragms do not loosen? cause i was told by my ears, and a talk with an audio engineer from Meelectronics that yes dynamic drivers do burn in.
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Jul 22, 2009 at 6:10 AM Post #77 of 208
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Seedhouse /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Yes, I believe it is.



No. The overwhelming majority think they did, I'll agree. But since these were in no way controlled observations their evidenciary weight is nill.



Well, no. I am just as fallible as they are and they are in the very same group as I am, namely the "human being" group. Now if they want me to believe that they are somehow less fallible than I, they'll have to provide some convincing evidence that they are, such as a positive result on a well conducted double blinded test. Or a good set of well controlled measurements showing an observable change in frequency response.

Human beings are fallible, period. Including me.



That human beings adapt to the sound of a given transducer is not extraordinary, it is ordinary and has been known to be so since at least the 1950s when I first started reading about the subject. This is neither sudden nor unusual, but normal. It's basically how people work. Nor is it inexplicable except in the sense that we still cannot fully explain the observed normal workings of our own minds.



Neither you nor the other believers in "burn in" have provided any.


Hey, dude, seriously go buy two IE8, let one burn 200 hrs and another to be a control, listening to them with one song. The answer is there.

I was in your same shoe to doubt burn in was working. After playing with IE8 for 450 hrs, I get my answer.

Get one IE8 is all you need. It is pointless for you to bicker with all other IE8 owners.

All your talking is like "People don't even have a car to tell me how to drive........." You can stretch your points as far as you want, I am sure that there is no one here thinking you are in right mind
 
Jul 22, 2009 at 6:11 AM Post #78 of 208
Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeyb213 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Honestly it doesn't matter guys believe what you want there is no sense in trying to make others feel differently from what they believe.


i am certainly not, i am saying what i believe and Ed here is trying to say that my belief is wrong and i'm just standing on my belief.
 
Jul 22, 2009 at 6:13 AM Post #79 of 208
Quote:

Originally Posted by gameboy115 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Hey, dude, seriously go buy two IE8, let one burn 200 hrs and another to be a control, listening to them with one song. The answer is there.

I was in your same shoe to doubt burn in was working. After playing with IE8 for 450 hrs, I get my answer.

Get one IE8 is all you need. It is pointless for you to bicker with all other IE8 owners.

People don't even have a car to tell me how to drive.........


There's no point in it, by the looks of it. He claims that his information is enough and that all our ears are wrong to prove and show that burn in doesn't exist.

Most likely, his testing with two IE8's would just be useless as most likely he is going to end up being bias and saying there isn't any difference cause he is going to bring up that "mentality" and "tricking our minds" thing.
 
Jul 22, 2009 at 6:13 AM Post #80 of 208
Quote:

Originally Posted by MaoDi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Science and Technology is enough to prove to you that Dynamic Drivers/Moving coils, cones and diaphragms do burn in. There's no way around it, if you argue to the Head-Fi community that Balanced Armatures don't burn in then that's very reasonable Balanced Armatures are designed and configured so they don't change in sound overtime, it's jsut the way they're built.

But dynamic drivers are different, they're diaphragm and they material holding the Diaphragm starts to loosen up after burn-in.


Once again an assertion given without evidence. If there is such evidence surely you should be able to provide it.

Well I am sorry, but the actual measurements show no such effect beyond a few seconds. And there is no reason to suppose that, if they did, the result would be anything other than a deterioration in sound quality, not an improvement.
 
Jul 22, 2009 at 6:17 AM Post #81 of 208
There is absolutely evidence that diaphragm's loosen over use. The place where the debate comes in is whether or not that loosening effects the frequency response. Personally I believe in human burn in more then anything. I feel that when I listen to a certain piece of equipment a lot I familiarize myself with it and if I listen to something else it sounds odd until I spend a lot of time with that in a cycle.
 
Jul 22, 2009 at 6:21 AM Post #82 of 208
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Seedhouse /img/forum/go_quote.gif
And yet these "obvious" changes are not measurable and have never been shown by double blind tests.

On the other hand, a mechanism by which such "obvious" effects could occur is well known, easily measurable, and scientifically non controversial. Namely that your own perceptions changed, not the headphones.


Only true if it has in fact been scientifically proved that the Sennheiser IE8 earphones do not burn in. Point me to such a test and I will agree with you, it's all in my head. Until then, my, and the observation of MANY other IE8 owners is that there is a very clear difference between a brand new pair of IE8, and one that has been burned in for a day or so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Seedhouse /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Why coudn't it be? Are you some superhuman who can't be fooled? That is an extraordinary claim since we already know that all of us can be fooled rather easily. In fact the very perception of stereo itself is only possible because our ears are fooled into hearing two separate sounds played over two entirely separate transducers as being instead a single sound coming from a single place in space. If you couldn't be fooled this way you couldn't hear stereo at all.


I'm not claiming to be superhuman or anything, sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I was just wondering how come our "perception" only changes with dynamic phones, as opposed to BA ones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Seedhouse /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The believers always end up claiming that they have super ears while the rest of us are implied to have tin ears. Argument by insulting those who disagree, in other words.


No. No because even you hear the difference. You just don't seem to trust your senses enough because you don't have graphs and numbers in front of you to back them up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Seedhouse /img/forum/go_quote.gif
But we all hear the differences - I hear the differences, I just don't fool myself into thinking it's the headphones that have changed instead of me. The evidence is rather overwhelming that it's not the phones that are changing, but we ourselves who are changing.


Weird. Normally when I hear the same sound more than once, it sounds the same. As is the case with the beep of my microwave, the buzz of my computer, the toilet flushing, and oh... BA drivers. How could the sound difference with a pair of IE8 be explained?
 
Jul 22, 2009 at 6:23 AM Post #83 of 208
Quote:

Originally Posted by hockeyb213 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
There is absolutely evidence that diaphragm's loosen over use.


Then you can perhaps cite this evidence? Beyond a few seconds that is, which is known and uncontroversial. Except that it is the elastic suspension elements that change, not the cone itself.

Quote:

The place where the debate comes in is whether or not that loosening effects the frequency response. Personally I believe in human burn in more then anything. I feel that when I listen to a certain piece of equipment a lot I familiarize myself with it and if I listen to something else it sounds odd until I spend a lot of time with that in a cycle.


I agree with that.
 
Jul 22, 2009 at 6:24 AM Post #84 of 208
You just proved my point yourself..... I am not fighting for either side but diaphragms do loosen and that is a commonly known and accepted fact. If you are not careful with speakers diaphragms can also get stiff if kept in the wrong environment and even have cones crack.
 
Jul 22, 2009 at 6:26 AM Post #85 of 208
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Seedhouse /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Then you can perhaps cite this evidence? Beyond a few seconds that is, which is known and uncontroversial. Except that it is the elastic suspension elements that change, not the cone itself.


The biggest evidence is manufactuer of speakers themselves, Altec Lansing puts all their speakers through a "burn-in" process before going through final quality control.

I don't think Altec Lansing would waste their time burning in speakers if it doesn't do anything....
 
Jul 22, 2009 at 6:27 AM Post #86 of 208
Quote:

Originally Posted by MaoDi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
i am certainly not, i am saying what i believe and Ed here is trying to say that my belief is wrong and i'm just standing on my belief.


I have pointed this out in other burn in threads. He won't stop shoving his view points into other peoples minds. He always claims to have evidence but he has yet to present a single piece. Look, the burn in believers don't have hard scientific data, you don't have any scientific data either. However the burn in believers have ears that aren't biased by thoughts produced by the brain. If 95% of head fires with ie8's believe they hear a difference, it's pretty hard to argue that burn in doesn't exist and change their minds as well, which you have been trying to do. All of your posts have been biased view points of burn in. This forum is supposed to be a helpful tool for headphone users, ed, you are far from helpful.
 
Jul 22, 2009 at 6:28 AM Post #87 of 208
Quote:

Originally Posted by MaoDi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The biggest evidence is manufactuer of speakers themselves, Altec Lansing puts all their speakers through a "burn-in" process before going through final quality control.

I don't think Altec Lansing would waste their time burning in speakers if it doesn't do anything....


I understand your point as well but that can very easily be for the purpose of qc to make sure the speaker is working as intended and not for a true burn in purpose.
 
Jul 22, 2009 at 6:44 AM Post #88 of 208
Quote:

Originally Posted by GN85 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Only true if it has in fact been scientifically proved that the Sennheiser IE8 earphones do not burn in.


That they do burn in is the controversial claim, and the burden of evidence is upon those who make it.

Dynamic drivers in general do not "burn in" beyond the first few seconds, and that short term change does not affect the sound audibly. This has all been researched and well known for many decades. The IE8 being a dynamic driver there is no reason to expect any "burn-in" effect. If such an effect exists it would be easy to measure, yet no one has pointed to any such measurements.

Quote:

Point me to such a test and I will agree with you, it's all in my head.


I have never said that it is all in your head. It's in pretty well everybody's head, not just in yours, and in mine too. That's how our brains work, and a good thing too.

Quote:

Until then, my, and the observation of MANY other IE8 owners is that there is a very clear difference between a brand new pair of IE8, and one that has been burned in for a day or so.


Yet not one measurement showing anything like it.

Quote:

I'm not claiming to be superhuman or anything, sorry if I wasn't clear enough. I was just wondering how come our "perception" only changes with dynamic phones, as opposed to BA ones.


This is most likely a common placebo effect based on prior expectations. Also I've seen lots of claims of burn in with the armature type phones. What's your basis for believing they don't burn in but dynamic drivers do?

No. No because even you hear the difference. You just don't seem to trust your senses enough because you don't have graphs and numbers in front of you to back them up.
I trust my senses to keep me alive, which they have done successfully every day so far. That is what they evolved for and very successfully too. But they have well known limitations and when we are claiming something that is beyond those limitations I don't expect them to be competant in these areas.

That our senses decieve us is well known. If you sit in front of and between two good speakers and play the identical signal in both you will, if you are normal, hear one sound located at a place between the loudspeakers, with no sound at all coming from the two speakers. That is an illusion, because that isn't what is happening at all. But it's a handy illusion as it allows stereo recordings to be made and played to our pleasure.

There is clearly no sound being produced anywhere but at each of the two separate speakers. Yet we hear one sound placed in the middle. Do you deny that this is an illusion? Is there actually an invisible transducer there in between the two speakers?

Quote:

Weird. Normally when I hear the same sound more than once, it sounds the same. As is the case with the beep of my microwave, the buzz of my computer, the toilet flushing, and oh... BA drivers. How could the sound difference with a pair of IE8 be explained?


As I said this effect has been observed for many years. As you listen to a transducer your ear/brain adapt to it and make it sound more and more "right" to the extent that once this adaptation has happened a more accurate transducer will then sound "wrong" until it too is adapted to. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. The same mechanism allows us to get better at distinguishing voices in a crowd as we adapt to our surroundings, for instance.
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Click to expand...
 
Jul 22, 2009 at 6:47 AM Post #89 of 208
Quote:

Originally Posted by MaoDi /img/forum/go_quote.gif
The biggest evidence is manufactuer of speakers themselves, Altec Lansing puts all their speakers through a "burn-in" process before going through final quality control.

I don't think Altec Lansing would waste their time burning in speakers if it doesn't do anything....


Got a reference to a source that confirms this? Of course all manufacturers must test their speakers to make sure they actuall work and are within specification. That test will complete any burn in needed in the first few seconds, but that is obviously not the purpose of the procedure,
 
Jul 22, 2009 at 6:50 AM Post #90 of 208
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pepito /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I have pointed this out in other burn in threads. He won't stop shoving his view points into other peoples minds.


Doesn't seem to have worked very well with you! Let's see, posting my opinion in a thread that asks if people believe in burn in is now attempting to "shove my viewpoints" into other people's minds, but telling people in thread after thread that they have to burn in their headphones isnt?

Some might think that if Pepito has to use language in that fashion then he really isn't very secure in his own beliefs.
 
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