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ULTRASONE S-LOGIC: LOGICAL or NOT?

post #1 of 92
Thread Starter 
I have been reading as much as I can about the Ultrasone headphones and their proprietary S-Logic engineering. It seems to me that when someone listens to headphones, that the impression of its excellence should be fairly immediate. However, it has been said on many threads here that, because of the S-Logic, it might take some time for ones ears to adjust to the sound. Some think that the S-Logic is outstanding and others not so. My question is despite what Ultrasone says, is S-Logic sound engineering or not? Are there any physics and biology majors here that can weigh in with their opinions?


Ultrasone-
S-Logic™ sends music around your head not just into it, because this technology uses decentralized driver positioning. Did you know that all of you use and need the outer ear for your three-dimensional understanding to define the direction and distance where a sound comes from? Instead of hitting the inner ear directly, with S-Logic™ the signals are reflected off the surface of the outer ear in different directions before entering the auditory canal to create a natural three-dimensional Sound. S-Logic™ is the only headphone system which includes your entire sense of hearing. S-Logic™ does not change your personal hearing, it intensifies it for your individual needs and listening pleasure.
post #2 of 92
S-Logic...Yes.

In my experience, the S-Logic, by bouncing on the surface of the outer ear, creates a phase. The sound can be considered dimensional. I discovered that the K702 creates a real sphere with depth, width and breadth. The engineers did it perfectly. But yes, when you compare the K702 with the PL 650, in the first few moments, they sound similar. If you change the volume, you'll see the difference in a linear form.

The S-Logic definitely has a lot to offer and the Ultrasone drivers sound very clean and natural. I just hope the Ultrasone engineers decide to take the headphones and the S-Logic a step forward, and not just in terms of the design.
post #3 of 92
while in theory it sounds okay but it's just another attempt at compensating the limitations of headphone listening. why even bother, it just gets in the way of the primary sounds. i'd rather have the best of one thing than a not so awesome mix of things. i hate 'headstage' in fones, it's just not natural and it all sounds fake or annoying for example the presentation of akg k501.
post #4 of 92

Reply to David Hunter

Yes, David, there really is an S-Logic.
post #5 of 92
The first headphones i came across in which the drivers were angled towards the outer ear were Bose. The sound was quite good, but it ddidn't create a 3d illusion very consistantly: some music was more 3d than others.
post #6 of 92
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acix View Post
S-Logic...Yes.

In my experience, the S-Logic, by bouncing on the surface of the outer ear, creates a phase. The sound can be considered dimensional. I discovered that the K702 creates a real sphere with depth, width and breadth. The engineers did it perfectly. But yes, when you compare the K702 with the PL 650, in the first few moments, they sound similar. If you change the volume, you'll see the difference in a linear form.

The S-Logic definitely has a lot to offer and the Ultrasone drivers sound very clean and natural. I just hope the Ultrasone engineers decide to take the headphones and the S-Logic a step forward, and not just in terms of the design.
Acix, thanks for your comments. Are you saying that the engineering used in the K702 is similar to that of the Edition 9's? Also, how did the K702 "perfect" this application? If you are hoping that the Ultrasone engineers will take their S-Logic a step forward, what is lacking and what do you have in mind? How too would you explain the anomaly of the many who do not like the Ultrasone sound? I suspect it has something to do with the S-Logic.
post #7 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidhunternyc View Post
How too would you explain the anomaly of the many who do not like the Ultrasone sound? I suspect it has something to do with the S-Logic.
The producers of the Twilight Zone are considering creating a show pertaining to this particular subject.
post #8 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidhunternyc View Post
Acix, thanks for your comments. Are you saying that the engineering used in the K702 is similar to that of the Edition 9's? Also, how did the K702 "perfect" this application? If you are hoping that the Ultrasone engineers will take their S-Logic a step forward, what is lacking and what do you have in mind? How too would you explain the anomaly of the many who do not like the Ultrasone sound? I suspect it has something to do with the S-Logic.
The K702 and the ED9 are diametrically opposite creatures. If the K702s are the best studio headphones, so the ED9, would be one of the best hi-fi headphones, and probably the most fun headphones around.

Now, back to the S-Logic. With the Ultrasones, I have the feeling that there is not so much depth to create the dimensional sound sphere in the soundstage. The S-Logic definitely works as a natural phase effect inside the headphones. It means the sound doubles itself. It's an interesting experience, especially with electronic music that involves a lot of fx, delay, reverb, chorus,etc.

The AKGs don't have the special tricks, but somehow, they create the perfect dimensional sphere, with a real feeling of depth. It means that you can catch the tail of your reverb.

I respect the Ultrasone headphones, but in my experience as a musician, they do need more depth to improve the S-Logic, at least for studio use.

I hope this sheds some light on the issue.
post #9 of 92
Thread Starter 
Well, if the S-Logic bounces the sound off the outer ear into the ear canal by repositioning the drivers off-axis, I would think that ordinary drivers do the same thing. Even though conventional drivers are centered over the ear canal, they are still "outside" the ear. Sound will still bounce off the outer ear into the ear canal.
post #10 of 92
S-logic hasn't resulted in a particularly big/realistic/holographic/coherent/whatever soundstage for me. It's been about the same as most headphones I've heard. I don't buy the whole "you need to adjust to it" either. I didn't need to adjust to the fantastic soundstage of a K1000. To each his own I guess. Everyone's ears are different.
post #11 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidhunternyc View Post
Well, if the S-Logic bounces the sound off the outer ear into the ear canal by repositioning the drives off-axis, I would think that ordinary drivers do the same thing. Even though conventional drivers are centered over the ear canal, they are still "outside" the ear. Sound will still bounce off the outer ear into the ear canal.
That was my thought process. As long as the driver is sitting away from the ear you can think of it as a flash light in a dark tunnel, some of the waves will escape the original "beam" and will hit the surroundings, in the driver case your outer ear.

Dave
post #12 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by davidhunternyc View Post
Well, if the S-Logic bounces the sound off the outer ear into the ear canal by repositioning the drives off-axis, I would think that ordinary drivers do the same thing. Even though conventional drivers are centered over the ear canal, they are still "outside" the ear. Sound will still bounce off the outer ear into the ear canal.
I think that when you "center" the driver on your ear, your ear picks the best part of the sound which is direct.

By FORCING the driver and "source" of the sound away from the center of the ear you can insure that more of the ear is used in hearing. This is the foundation of ultrasone "technology" BUT something that can be done with other headphones if care is taken when putting them on your melon.

The irony here is that the EASIEST headphones to "ultra-fake" (in my experience) are grados. The shape and confining nature of the pads on circumnaural headphones prohibit the positioning of the driver BOTH lower and forwards of the ear canal.

With a set of grados, try putting them FAR forwards on your ears rather than centered. If you have room, drop them down so they are almost centered on your earlobes. Try it, its not going to cost anything... Maybe you will save yourself a couple shillings by finding you dont need ultrasones to get amazing soundstage from headphones which should not have any. Really its like aligning full sized speakers to your room. you can buy expensive speakers and throw them in the corners: you get the kind of crap sound you imagine. By spending some time getting them positioned well you reap the rewards.

IMHO, the nicest thing about ultrasone's s-logic is that you cant screw it up. The headphones always go on your head properly to give good soundstage.
post #13 of 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by b0dhi View Post
S-logic hasn't resulted in a particularly big/realistic/holographic/coherent/whatever soundstage for me. It's been about the same as most headphones I've heard. I don't buy the whole "you need to adjust to it" either. I didn't need to adjust to the fantastic soundstage of a K1000. To each his own I guess. Everyone's ears are different.
I couldn't agree more. IME with the ED9's and PL750's, this whole S-Logic thing has turned out to simply be non-existent. They both sound just like any other headphone, nothing different about their presentation that one has "to get used to". That's not a bad thing either as they both are fine headphones, they're just not capable of providing some new revelation inducing sound experience. I personally feel that this supposed S-Logic "trait" of the Ultrasone design has been completely exaggerated by a few here and they have succeeded in getting the majority to believe there is something different about Ultrasone, when in reality there really isn't. The Ultrasone design accomplishes nothing over any other angled driver setup headphone.
post #14 of 92
Thread Starter 
^^^ I completely understand what you are saying and it is the reason why I posted this thread. But just because I understand it and it makes sense to me doesn't mean my understanding is correct. I wish we could hear from a physics or biology expert about this issue.
post #15 of 92
Off center drivers, angled drivers, partially covered drivers. All these tricks have been in use by many headphone manufacturers for years. This trick was known for ages too
http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-on...tipstricks.htm
And to my ears they all sound more natural, realistic and spacious than Ultrasone implementation. Just a couple of closed hp that imo do better job with soundstage and positioning than PL750 (AT-W5000, Denon D2000, even Beyer DT770 2005).
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