The other side of the coin seems to have been overlooked somehow. And that is when something excellent and outstanding value is too cheap in some people's eyes, it gets rejected as a budget product that is far from as good as one many times more expensive. No wonder therefore that many manufacturers stuff their PCB in an expensive case that is heavy in weight. Add a big heavy transformer even when the electronics don't need it that large, and you get extra weight to make the product feel expensive as well.

I have pointed out this trick carried out by manufacturers before when discussing the TC-7510 DAC performance versus price. But at the end of the day $$$ is more than $$, and show off factor has a lot to answer for. I won't say Goldmund are ripping off people, just as I wouldn't call a VERTU mobile phone a rip off even thought the electronics are those of a cheap phone. If you want exclusivity, you have to shop in a price range above the general price range. You only have to look at the market in fake brand names. Are the buyers interested in the goods, or the brand name? If quality was their concern they would buy the genuine article. But as fake goods demonstrate, quality is not a major issue for many people. The brand name is, and Goldmund are playing to that market. Not that this is a new thing.

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Well just assuming for a minute that there are differences between CD players and DVD players big enough to warrant a high end and low end to the market then clearly it's not just in the transport as I can't think of a single "audiophile" DVD transport, ie one which is bespoke and not just repurposed from a common or garden DVD player.


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The fact is that such an undertaking would be practically beyond the reach of pretty much any "audiophile" company you care to name. Only huge industrial combines like Philips and Sony actually have the resources to undertake this kind of development. Linn made their own transport and it practically bankrupted them. The CD12 cost a cool 12000UKP that's 24000USD at the current exchange rate. If any company could find a market for a bespoke DVD mechanism then it would have to come from somebody like Goldmund. They've obviously decided that such a market doesn't exist for them.


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Can you really tell that from those pictures? I doubt it.

The fact is that most of the work done on CD and DVD players by smaller specialsit audiophile companies is in designing the topography of the whole device which amounts to choosing which parts bin to take these elements from, wiring them together usually to a bespoke psu and analogue output stage and putting the whole layout into a case which will be acoustically inert.

Look inside a Linn Unidisk or top of the line Meridian and you'll find a similar array of bought in parts but I'm sure there are few people here who would argue that these sound indistinguishable from a Walmart DVD player. Whether they sound good enough to warrant the extra outlay is a different matter.

memepool, yes, I can tell.

If you actually look, you will notice the same boards, with the same components.

Even if they recapped it with like black gates or some other placebo/boutique capacitor, it wouldn't go anywhere near $12,000.

This is the emperor's new clothes, plain and simple.

I have to ask, if they did add some more PCB's or something, why would they be underneath the Pioneer boards? Wouldn't they want people to see them the minute they open the player so they knew they didn't just get taken for a ride?

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Regardless of the larger economic picture, this is criminal! There has to be a certain level of corporate responsibility. I don't care if the extra cash it earns them helps research th e cure for cancer. THEY ARE USING THE PRETENSE THAT THEIR RESEARCH TRICKLES DOWN INTO THEIR PRODUCTS. This is fraud. The only research they did in this products development is which cheap player to chop up to put in a $500 case and sell it for $12000 under the pretense that they do good research!

Whenever I buy new or used gear, I like to examine the entrails. Sometimes I like what I see, and sometimes not:

Counterpoint Solid 1 - nice internal metalwork, hand-matched transistors (unless I'm badly mistaken), good overall quality

ModSquad CDP - beautiful non-Magnavox analog board, connected by solid-core silver wire

Audionics BT-2 preamp - potted circuits, not fixable if they die, and the phono board was dead, but good sound

Cyrus 2 amp - major parts, like the toroidal trannie, are SIGNED!

Anthem Amp One - PCB's of the highest caliber, excellent quality throughout

Yamaha CR-1020 and M-35 - the innards of both looked unremarkable, the CR-1020 sounded unremarkable, the M-35 very sweet

Stax SRA-3S - the plug-in board does not even have gold-plated contacts, the PCBs and parts look mediocre, so how does it sound so good?

Mitsubishi tuner/preamp - people pump this thing up, but a look inside, as with soooo much gear, shows it to be complete dreck...

I'm using a $15 flea-market DVDP as a transport for my CD playing (with a good DAC). Having read this thread, I see no reason to change. Goldmund can kiss my cous cous.

Laz

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The Goldmund player in question is actually a mid-level model. The next model up "retailed as high as $26,000" (according to a guy selling one on A'gon), the flagship is $75k. I wouldn't be surprised to find that same Pioneer transport in each, albeit with further modifications.


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This is similar to the point you made earlier...suggesting that this kind of activity is commonplace in the high end, but I don't think (m)any manufacturers are nearly this egregious. I haven't looked under the hood of any Linn or Meridian players, but I thoroughly expect they at least design their own circuit boards.

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Making huge assumptions about what's in there doesn't bother me nor anyone making a subjective decision as to its value, but calm down man. Is this issue so core to your being you need to use CAPS? Even I think all the speculation on what's inside is fun and interesting, but realistically, is there anyone here who can say 100% what's in there without a detailed parts list and a schematic (to say nothing of how it sounds)? I thought everyone in the thread conceded that.

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And why would we need a detailed parts list? How would that make a difference to the situation? Any electronics engineer can see that those two units consist of the same electronics and mechanical parts at the heart of its operation. Only someone in denial or blindfolded would fail to spot otherwise.

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Why on earth would it need gold plated contacts? This is 60's technology and PCB's weren't very advanced back then.

Btw. It sounds good because the parts are good and so is the design. All ELNA caps with some nice polyester couplers.

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Yes, CAPS are needed! This is just another example of how corporations take advantage of consumers and is cause to be angry! If this was an isolated incident OK, but it is not! This is the main reason why I am going DIY! Speaker manufacturers are bad too! They fill a box full of drivers worth $100 to $200 and build them into a nicely finished box and sell them for $2000 $200000! I made a pair of towers for a friend with $1000 worth of drivers and xover parts, finished them to a level that would compete with ANY non metal finish on the market($200 in materials). Total cost to him was $1500. I would have charged him more for the cabinets and finish, but he is a friend. I was thinking a while back that I should sell these speakers finished for $3000 and figured, "who would want to pay $3000 for someone else's drivers in my nice box?" The I realized that this would be a 5 to 10 times better value than buying a set of $15000 set of speakers that has lesser drivers. It seems most high end its not high end, just high end finish!

Another example is a local favorite here... Channel Island's mono block amps are simply the Hypex amp modules put in a nice aluminum case and sold for $2400. $400 in amp parts, $100 in case work, equals $2500 amps. At least this is not on the scale of the Goldmund and they make it known that they are using Hypex amps. Some manufacturers do R&D and invent and build new technology! Even then I would rather support the guy designing these circuits as opposed to paying the guy who learned how to take advantage of you in school. Reading this post also make me feel confident in my choice to use a Pioneer DVD player as a victim to gut for my DIY SACD player. The only way I can see to get a $1000 player that performs to the level I want. If I was rich, I would still DIY my next project just to maintain my dignity! I don't like it in the a@#!

I agree wholeheartedly with R. MacBeastie. I made my own speakers, then bought a pair of custom-builts, then forgot all the advantages of DIY for awhile. A couple of years ago, I sold my B&W Matrix 805's and never looked back. I am currently using a pair of modded Fishers, and I am very happy with them. My foray into the high-end is over, and I am staying away from audio salons.

Laz

Devils advocate here.

Audiophiles who supposedly know whats what are buying these things. If they are paying 12,000 for a 200 dollar player I say blame the idiots who buy it, not the company that sells it, blame the fools who 'claim' they can hear the difference. If people listen more with their eyes and preconceptions than their ears, more fool them.

At least if you put a Ferrari body on a Pinto you'd pretty soon notice it was not quite right, yet people claim they can tell the difference with much audio gear when the evidence clearly points the other way. I don't blame Goldmund any more than any other 'tweak' company with wild claims as to what we're being sold.

You can't rip off a willing and eager victim. All you can do is help satisfy their psychological need for some elusive 'better' and we all know the more expensive that 'better' is, the better. Apparently prestige is able to make a Ferrari out of a Pinto after all. Who knew!

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Don't make me laugh. Only someone in denial or blindfolded would fail to see the pictures are different. What kind of wire does the Goldmund unit use? Silver? Copper? How pure is the copper? 99%? 99.9%? What are the exact specifications of the output stage? And as to all the electrical engineers commenting on head-fi; I see anonymous posters. Do you think I got the internet yesterday? Many poster have gained my respect, but others have completely mis-calculated their power on head-fi. I apologize to rat - I didn't read you post - and not to mock: obviously you've been ripped off in the past and this issue is part of your being. I hope you find peace through not buying Goldmund.

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So you are into the interconnecting wires now. Let's face it: the heart of the machine is in the electronics and CD mechanism. Start looking at the full picture and you'll see behind the façade.

The full picture as I see it - admitly cynically and skeptically - is that this is an internet forum. We have no details but loads of electrical engineers checking in. Sound does not appear to be a factor. This thread was fun for me when we were talking about why the Goldmund looks the way it does, asking questions about economics, and certainly some posters whom I trust have made valid points. To repeat myself, I don't have a problem with people making assumptions or subjective choices, but people trying to indoctrinate me, or suggesting that every poster in this thread has a degree in electrical engineering or offering vague theories about a capitalist conspiracy in the hi-fi industry (well, that's semi-interesting if approached maturely) is not why I'm here. I have a choice to keep disccussing the economics behind the unit because that's what I find interesting; that's why I'm on head-fi. I'm sorry if I don't get worked up by anonymous posts.