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A foray into the world of vinyl - Page 4

post #46 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekbmn View Post
Nope... not with the ROKs.They differ from the Garrards and Thorens in that the top plate is (strangely) the better spot to mount the tonearm.I can't explain it nor has anyone else been able to , but they have a rather weird trait about them in that the top plate is pretty vibration free and yet still manages to tranfer it to the plinth.(and in turn is NOT vibration and noise free) I know it sounds rather strange but it is true and I have confirmed it through some experiments for myself. At this point I have a new idea up my sleeve for it as far as plinths go and will post pics when it comes to fruition.The table will have an Audioquest PT-9 mounted on it.
This really doesn't make sense that the tonearm would be better isolated from the motor on the top plate than on the plinth. 70 Lbs. of plinth can absorb a lot of motor vibration especially if the top plate is glass bedded to it for maximum contact but this is just theory on my part from much observed evidence.Thanks for the comments and keep us informed.Not much information is available on ROKs as compared with Garrards and heavy Lencos.
post #47 of 66
Here is an excerpt from Joseph Esmilla (JE Labs) in his findings about the ROK B12s....." Mounting a tonearm outside the periphery of the top plate in a Rondine B12H is not feasible and I confirmed this with a stethoscope. Maybe the only way to mount a tonearm longer than 9" on a B12H or similar turntable is to build a larger top plate from thick aluminum since the top plate chassis dissipates all traces of vibration from the motor in its original box type plinth." Strange but true.

And another....."The problem I encountered with the B12H was vibration from the huge Ashland motor when the tonearm is mounted outside of the top plate area. Within the top plate it was fine. Since the L34/37 Rondine Jr. used smaller motors [4-pole or Papst] it should not pose any problem".
post #48 of 66
Vinyl Asylum member Orthophonic has been rotating the Rek-O-Kut Rondine B12H 90 degrees on several projects and mounting the tonearm on the plinth.He claims that by using this method the B12H will outperform his Garrard 301.He says you need a tight fit and glass bedding an even larger surface area should achieve an even better fit.The devil could just be in the details.
post #49 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekbmn View Post
Here is an excerpt from Joseph Esmilla (JE Labs) in his findings about the ROK B12s....." Mounting a tonearm outside the periphery of the top plate in a Rondine B12H is not feasible and I confirmed this with a stethoscope. Maybe the only way to mount a tonearm longer than 9" on a B12H or similar turntable is to build a larger top plate from thick aluminum since the top plate chassis dissipates all traces of vibration from the motor in its original box type plinth." Strange but true.

And another....."The problem I encountered with the B12H was vibration from the huge Ashland motor when the tonearm is mounted outside of the top plate area. Within the top plate it was fine. Since the L34/37 Rondine Jr. used smaller motors [4-pole or Papst] it should not pose any problem".
One thing that troubles me is Joseph Esmilla's radical change in plinth designs from the heavy one piece Thorens and Garrard plinths to the light weight 2 tier cain & cain style plinth for the ROK B12H made from scraps.His earlier plinths are really excellent.The only thing missing is the absence of direct coupling,(glass bedding),to make them perfect.When he finally gets to the ROK B12H project with the gigantic Atlas motor,he builds a light weight 2 tier plinth that ultimately fails.A light plinth with the tonearm in the original location may be the right way to go with the Rek-O-Kut Rondine deluxe B12H,but I remain very skeptical.
post #50 of 66
Yeah I guess time will tell. Oh hell, playing around is part of the fun (for me at least) any way. I'll keep you posted.
post #51 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by memepool View Post
Fair enough. It's a slippery slope though. I have too many turntables in various states of renovation already though so I am trying a new years resolution. " I must not buy any more turntables" ....unless they are rare of course




Rumble is mainly down to poor understanding of plinth design and adequate isolation. Most of these old decks are just screwed to a bit of wood, often in the case of the standard gramophone they are in effect screwed to a speaker baffle
A simple properly isolated modern DIY plinth, of which there are dozens of patterns for and examples of on the net, will work wonders. Some of the old motor coupling and mounting designs were better than others of course but the whole "idler is bad" thing is just another example of marketing by companies making belt drives ( which shall remain nameless) akin to the " direct drive is bad" bias . Mostly nonsense.
Hey Memepool,I think this is a pretty good debate.I am the American defending a old British desinged TT,and you are the Englishman who is somewhat putting it down.Next thing ,we'll probably be at a bar or a pub with me defending Bass Ale ,and you will be arguing that Budwiser is the real king of beers.Anyway,you are light years ahead of me on the TT subject.I am the newcomer who has just gotten into the mix that has old English roots that seems to be coming out I guess.Thanks And Cherrio
post #52 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by unclejr View Post
The craziness ensues.

So what do you think does best the Technics?
Depends on who you ask. I think the SME 30/2 will best the Technics. A properly restored Garrad 301/401, Thorens TD-124, 126 or Lenco L75 will beat out a Technics. However, these turntable require much more maintenance than the Technics. Just my honest opinion but YMMV.
post #53 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by LFF View Post
Depends on who you ask. I think the SME 30/2 will best the Technics. A properly restored Garrad 301/401, Thorens TD-124, 126 or Lenco L75 will beat out a Technics. However, these turntable require much more maintenance than the Technics. Just my honest opinion but YMMV.
I have to agree that one of any of those vintage tables properly restored will beat a Technics 1200 in stock form.Will they beat a properly restored Technics 1200 with a KABUSA power supply and new tonearm?I think some will beat the Technics and others will fall short.Best to put them in the same system and compare.
post #54 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by LFF View Post
Depends on who you ask. I think the SME 30/2 will best the Technics. A properly restored Garrad 301/401, Thorens TD-124, 126 or Lenco L75 will beat out a Technics. However, these turntable require much more maintenance than the Technics. Just my honest opinion but YMMV.
I doubt any of these decks will comprehensively "beat" a fully modified Technics.

I've heard a Technics with a Rega derived arm and I own a Thorens TD125 with a fully modded Origin Live 1 arm and Lenco L-75/Linn LVV so I have some idea of how well vintage idlers and belt drives can perform.

I have yet to hear an SME 30 but I am pretty sure, having heard other similar state of the art belt drives, that this is the kind of outlay you are talking about to get close to "beating" a properly set up vintage deck with an equivalent tonearm.

Certainly the Technics is a pretty difficult deck to beat on timing within the music and my Thorens or other belt drives don't come close to this although they better it in terms of soundstage and sense of involvement. Similarly the idler drives like my Lenco time better than a belt drive but are more subtle somehow than a direct drive also giving a weightier presentation as though more powerful somehow.

In my experience belt drives certainly seem to gain more solidity and speed accuracy with a heavier platter. All in all unless you spend pretty serious money on a brand new deck then modding these old warhorses with new tonearms and replinthing takes you pretty close often for a fraction of the money. You are not really talking about outright "beatings" more differeing presentations which have strengths and weakenesses which some of us will prefer and others won't.
post #55 of 66
Hey guys ....I hopefully will be able to give you an idea of the performance of a good direct drive vs idler vs suspended vs non suspended here in about a month or so.
I am currently working on a deal for a Technics SP-25 in a Jean Nantais built plinth. Cross your fingers for me. It is suppose to be a stunning table !
post #56 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by derekbmn View Post
Hey guys ....I hopefully will be able to give you an idea of the perfomance of a good direct drive vs idler vs suspended vs non suspended here in about a month or so.
I am currently working on a deal for a Technics SP-25 in a Jean Nantais built plinth. Cross your fingers for me. It is suppose to be a stunning table !
Ha! Not sure if its the same one, but I did a fair amount of arguing with myself on whether to bid on one of those on eBay (auction ended below reserve anyways). Looked like a damn nice table, but was probably a bit out of my price range. Ended up buying a SL-1210mk2 from musicians friend which I'm waiting on UPS to deliver. Now I have to figure out whether I want to stick a dampener on the technics arm or replace the arm altogether.
post #57 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by servoled View Post
Ha! Not sure if its the same one, but I did a fair amount of arguing with myself on whether to bid on one of those on eBay (auction ended below reserve anyways). Looked like a damn nice table, but was probably a bit out of my price range. Ended up buying a SL-1210mk2 from musicians friend which I'm waiting on UPS to deliver. Now I have to figure out whether I want to stick a dampener on the technics arm or replace the arm altogether.
Many here and elsewhere underrate the Technics 1200/1210 because it's stock $65 tonearm doesn't sound as good as the more expensive turntables with $800 tonearms.The KABUSA modified tonearms get a lot of praise but to get the full performance from the Technics,a new tonearm is really the only way to go.Depending on how much you are willing to spend,you probably can't go wrong either way.The task of changing the arm is certainly no big deal.
post #58 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by double LL View Post
Hey Memepool,I think this is a pretty good debate.I am the American defending a old British desinged TT,and you are the Englishman who is somewhat putting it down.Next thing ,we'll probably be at a bar or a pub with me defending Bass Ale ,and you will be arguing that Budwiser is the real king of beers.
If I were to be patriotic then it would be Guinness rather than ale or if it had to be budweiser then I'd rather the original Czech one

British turntables do seem very popular in the USA in spite of the current prohibitive exchange rate but over here there has been a reaction in the press of late to their fomer jingoism and now they do admit that other turntables besides the Linn Sondek might actually be worthwhile...
post #59 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by memepool View Post
I doubt any of these decks will comprehensively "beat" a fully modified Technics.

I've heard a Technics with a Rega derived arm and I own a Thorens TD125 with a fully modded Origin Live 1 arm and Lenco L-75/Linn LVV so I have some idea of how well vintage idlers and belt drives can perform.

I have yet to hear an SME 30 but I am pretty sure, having heard other similar state of the art belt drives, that this is the kind of outlay you are talking about to get close to "beating" a properly set up vintage deck with an equivalent tonearm.

Certainly the Technics is a pretty difficult deck to beat on timing within the music and my Thorens or other belt drives don't come close to this although they better it in terms of soundstage and sense of involvement. Similarly the idler drives like my Lenco time better than a belt drive but are more subtle somehow than a direct drive also giving a weightier presentation as though more powerful somehow.

In my experience belt drives certainly seem to gain more solidity and speed accuracy with a heavier platter. All in all unless you spend pretty serious money on a brand new deck then modding these old warhorses with new tonearms and replinthing takes you pretty close often for a fraction of the money. You are not really talking about outright "beatings" more differeing presentations which have strengths and weakenesses which some of us will prefer and others won't.
You make a good point. I have never heard a fully modified Technics and would love to get the chance to do so. My comment was just for the stock Technics. Your last sentence is also very true.

EDIT:

D A M N you guys!!! Now I'm considering buying a fully modified Technics.

Any advice?
post #60 of 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by LFF View Post
D A M N you guys!!! Now I'm considering buying a fully modified Technics.
Any advice?
needledoctor carry the Origin Live versions of the Rega tonearm which are actually cheaper over there and all you need otherwise is the new mounting plate. Of course you can spend a small fortune on rewiring and upgrading this arm too. Here is there site where you can read all about it The best dj tonearms for dj decks - technics 1200 deck

If you want an off the peg modded one then JA Michell also make a version called the Tecnoarm which is meant to be very good. Or else if you fancy an SME or other arm then there is a compnay called soundsupports on ebay who also sell tonearm mounting plates for the SL1200 and SL1500.

KABUSA make several well renowned mods especially to the motor and then there is Sound Deadened Steel - Sound Deadening - Industrial Noise Control - Sound Dead Steel who make special support feet and a platter mat which got an excellent review when Hi-Fi World magazine recently did a full makeover on a Technics to see how far it could go. They rated it pretty favourably against a fully renovated Garrard by the way.

Have fun...
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