Impressive read! Probably the most interesting write up on head-fi that I've read because of it's thought provoking content.

I too have been thinking about the same issues of source. While I do believe that source is very important, the idea of spending a lot of money on a high end CD with poor diminishing returns does bother me a little even though I still would like to get one. Also, I too have been seriously considering a turn table in the future and this article that you wrote does fuel the fire for my desire.

Many thanks for the positive comments, all!!

Since I posted this thread I've been severely enjoying the music and - mercifully - not craving new audio gear or upgrades. No new revelations in this time, but a couple more insights:

1) I've noticed that good vinyl really accentuates and enhances the individual strengths of different headphones. I've enjoyed the L3000's driving power with Iron Maiden, Jethro Tull, and Dire Straits. The HD650's soundstage was sublimely expansive and enveloping with the recent Tori Amos and New Order albums. The Qualia 010 was truly holographic, transparent in its reproduction of an opera (Lucia di Lammermoor, featuring a young Pavarotti). A wide range of genres rendered impeccably by a single source...I just need to match the headphone & amp to the desired experience

The downstream gear I've been using recently:
L3000 & SDS for rock & metal
HD650 w/ Zu & Rudistor RP7b for newer pop
Qualia 010 w/ stock cable & Rudistor for classical/opera

Haven't found a solid niche for the vintage RS-1 yet, though they do sound nice. Need to try the JVC DX1000 with vinyl and see what they can do.

2) I got my cleaning rig set up and it does make a difference in the noise floor - some discs more than others. I use a VPI 16.5 vacuum cleaner with TTVJ's Vinyl Zyme, a couple zaps from a Milty Zerostat after cleaning, and a new poly-lined sleeve tops off the process. I also now use an Onzo Zerodust to clean the stylus every few records. With new vinyl, and especially well cared for used vinyl, you can almost completely eliminate the static pops & ticks. As I mentioned before the noise floor was never a big issue with me, but still, the lower the better! I also feel good knowing that clean records should last much longer (I rest vinyl for at least 6 hours after play as an additional precaution).

3) As mentioned by countless others, the mindset one has when playing vinyl is different than with CD. Once the needle drops, I'm very likely to get lost into that side of music until the last bit of groove. With CD, it was far to tempting to skip around to my current favorite tracks, skip over a meandering intro, or skip right to the next track as a song was winding down. With vinyl I'm far more...relaxed, and able to soak up the album as the artist probably intended. When you're willing to accept something exactly as-is, you're far more likely to find the hidden gems within Or you could also say - after all that cleaning/setup ritual with each disc, you're itching to hear some serious tunes before going through it all again!

Curses, I need money for more records!!!

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Nice to know that you are this happy Mike. One of these days, I will have to take along my modded SCD-777E and do a shoot out with your table. Great reads as usual.

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Well I would consider myself quite firmly one of those who "spew out all the theory.....". However I try to only do this when we have these Vinyl is superior threads, which I consider an invitation for debate.


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You might say the same for vinyl just replace 15 years with 30 years .

It is true you can spend a fortune on a CD player and not necessarily get anything audibly better than a $200 DVD player, in fact when you look at the tests on some really high end CD players, well lets just say that flat frequency reponse isnt always part of the story. This puzzles me , for me part of the attraction of CD is that it (supposedly) presents a neutral rendering of the material it is given, neither taking away nor adding much.


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Indeed, no argument from me. I really like my AKG K240S but I think I am in very limited company here, no biggy.

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Is that why you don't mention it in your profile? Anyway, I like the K240S quite a bit, too - and I enjoy both lps and cds...

Black Stuart: Oh, yes, do mod your Marantz. Those mid-range models really provide a lot of sound quality for the price, when properly modded.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

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Nope, not shame just laziness

hciman77,
your quite wrong that nothing has changed with vinyl in 30 years.

Arms and cartridges are far, far better than 30 years ago. Studies of arm structure, material used is far advanced.

The absolute certainty of the need for a rock solid, resonance free platform is now accepted by all, whether you use a DD/Idler or belt drive and it should be noted CDPs as well.

Arm wiring and phono lead-outs are such an important part of the overall equation.

Phono stages, well designed SS or valve have lifted the performance no end.

So, to return to your original remark about 'no changes in 30 years' means that with this lack of current knowledge, your argument loses any credibility does'nt it?

You would be well advised to first listen to the reality of vinyl today before engaging further in this discussion. Indeed if you have an open mind you might well find that after listening to a modern vinyl rig, you have a totally different opinion - the question is surely - are you up for this?

If you want to hear drums come to life, pickup a copy of Zenyatta Mondatta by The Police on Vinyl. WOW!!!!

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I was being mischievious, that is why I winked. I will grant you that there have been some technical improvements in TT design since 1977, can you provide me with some comparative performance specs on mainstream components of the two eras by the way. However the fundamentals are wholly unchanged. However the problem lies with the physical properties of the playback medium, has it really improved ? i.e substantive improvements in the SNR of commercially available vinyl, the dynamic range of commercially available vinyl, improvements in the inner groove distortion of vinyl and in the summing to mono for low bass in vinyl. Are commercial vinyl pressings really better now than in 1977 ?

Lasers (I infer you mean CD players here) havent changed much , why do they have to , they do what is required and have done so adequately for the last 15 years, the red book standard is stable and CD players (apart from some boutique models or really crap ones) can pretty much (+/-) flat line the FR curve from 20 - 20K effortlessly.

I am sure that a good TT rig can sound great and I often think about getting a vinyl rig to try again, I still have many LPs back in blighty, but after CD I just couldnt live with the noise again, especially on the quiter passages of classical music which is what made me investigate CD in the 1980s.

Vinyl sounds great (if you can find records you want to listen to) and the surface noise for rock music never bothered me, the upper mids and treble are so sweet and natural sounding with vinyl, very hard to match this in best CD playback even today. Many new Cds I buy of rock music sound noticeably worse than the vinyl version I had from 10-20yrs ago, plus many record players are visual works of art

In 1984 I started with Rega Planar 3/ Quad pre & amp/ Spendor Sp1 speakers, then upgraded to Linn Lp12/Ittok arm/Valhalla/Moving coil cartridge which I was very happy with.......in early 1990's almost all large record stores stopped selling vinyl and had to buy from used record store (which was no real problem in large city) or very high priced boutique shops, finally reluctantly sold the Linn LP12 in 2001 and gave my record collection away to friends

What eventually can burn you out (as it did with me) is the extremely labor intensive hassle of actually playing/cleaning/preparing a 25 minute side of vinyl......it gets to be a drag.

CD has so many functional advantages:
-80 minute continuos playback
-no cleaning/prep ritual
-compact size
-much lower noise floor (especially important for classical music)
-and most important REMOTE CONTROL (play/select track/program tracks/repeat etc all from your comfy seat)

So I have made my choice after long experience with vinyl......just have to decide what is most important to you and your listening habits regarding investing in vinyl playback today, I find it interesting to hear about people trying serious vinyl system for first time and reporting thier impressions

The ability to almost infinitely tweak vinyl playback is both cool and maddening at the same time:

-cartridge upgrades
-moving coil vs moving magnet cartridge
-cartridge alignment in arm, downforce, antiskate etc
-using various platter mats
-footers under turntable
-wiring in arm, cable to phono amp
-upgrades to phono amp
-vinyl cleaning machines and fluids
-etc etc

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This is why I will probably never own a Vinyl rig. Vinyl just seems much too difficult to find for the majority of stuff I listen to. Also, being 24 I grew up with CD's, and, while I think Vinyl can sound great (granted I haven't heard high-end rigs), I prefer CD - or lossless files, preferably. I completely understand the alure of Vinyl though

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This is partly why I gave up vinyl. To add to the insult, now that I'm 100% PC audio, even CD's now seem like ridiculous hassle. 80 minutes of playtime? Try WEEKS of playtime with instant search and access with your average hard drive...

I guess I have a hard time understanding why people would spend so much time and money tweaking their audio system to get the best possible sound quality, and then say it's too much offort, so I'll settle with CD

Of course having a CP player is pretty much a must even for people interested in vinyl for the reasons mentioned.

Yeah, I don't listen to actual CD's either, unless I'm in my car. Otherwise, it's all hard-drive based. When I'm in the mood to hear lots of random songs, even CD's become a pain.