Thanks to my fellow Head-Fi members, I currently have three possibilities for a starter turntable setup, all for under $80... They're very specific combinations, which is why I need some help. What are the strengths and weaknesses of each of these setups:

Dual CS-431 with Empire cartridge.

Dual CS-515 with Shure M81 cartridge.

Denon DP-15F with Tonar 611BE cartridge.

Whaddya think?

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I'd suggest to go for the CS515.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

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Thanks lini.

What are your reasons? Can you tell me anything about the Shure M81 cartridge?

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Well, the CS515 has got quite a decent drive & arm - the CS431 not really. The Denon should be about on level with the CS515, but more difficult to repair, if something fails - and the Tonar isn't much of a quality cartridge. Hence I'd rather recommend the CS515, although the Denon wouldn't be a bad choice either. Just avoid the CS431 - that's only a very basic entry-level Dual.

The M81 is a typical proper sounding Shure - if it's the M81EC with elliptical needle, that's the best version of the M81 family. The body can take other Shure needles as well though, iirc.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

Just my luck... Someone else snagged the CS-515 a few hours ago. Thanks again for the info, though.

Then go for the Denon - a proper quartz controlled direct-drive is just as nice to have as a decent belt-drive. I'm just not really familiar with the Denon arms, so I can't recommend a priceworthy replacement for the very entry-level Tonar cartridge...

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

I have a question about Quartz PLL. Does it eliminate the need for a pitch control? How reliable is it?

I'm looking at a Pioneer direct drive TT (PL-400). It looks like it has a strobe, but no pitch control. Any thoughts on this one?

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Off the top of my head I'm pretty sure this is a quartz locked direct drive semi automatic deck equivalent to the Technics SL1700/1900. So rock stable in pitch if it's running properly which the strobe will tell you. Check out the automatic functions like cuing etc (press all the front buttons) and make sure it's not making any noise when spinning ( dryed out bearing ). Also check the tonearm action by putting on a record by hand and very gently give it a little twist to make sure there is no rattle in the arm bearings.

Depending on the condition anything under 100USD would be a good buy. These were mid range decks probably costing about 200USD in the late 1970s ( quite a lot of money back then )

Thanks a bunch, memepool.

I wish I could've tested it in person, but the seller (on eBay) seems to have a nice little business selling vintage audio equipment, so that's better than some guy's attic find.

Link to eBay auction for the PL-400

I bit, so I'll soon be the owner of the PL-400, my official "starter turntable."

My next step is ordering all of the necessary maintenance / alignment gear that'll stay with me throughout my vinyl journey... I'll need cleaning fluid, a carbon fiber brush, a rolling cleaner, stylus force gauge...

Anything else / recommendations?

Since this is a direct drive table, what sort of stuff should I expect to do once it arrives (ex. oiling parts, etc.)?

Also, what should I absolutely not do?

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First off make sure the guy packs it properly so you get it in one piece there is a good guide here

http://www.theturntablefactory.com/packing.html

Aside from the other stuff you mentioned I would personally at least replace the stylus if not the cart as it's just not worth the risk. He doesn't say what it is so it's probably not upto much.

Also find a good place to put it, wall shelf being preferred if you have a suspended wooden floor otherwise it's own surface on as heavy a support as possible away from speakers and other electronics.

It looks to be in really nice condition though especially for 50USD. Think you got a good deal there.

Shipping and insurance was a bit pricey, which negated a bit of the deal ($35, so grand total = $90 USD). I asked about the cartridge yesterday and it's an Empire, which seems to be the standard for these turntables. I guess if I upgraded the cartridge and eventually got a better TT, I could always swap cartridges.

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Still it's a good buy when you look at how much he's charging for the other Pioneer tables which are actually not any better or more collectable than yours just older with different styling. Presumably he thinks because they are finished in wood veneer they are more desirable, but this doesn't add much if anything to their performance. All his stuff does look to be in very good condition based on the pics so assuming it arrives that way you'll have done very well.

I read a review of your deck from an old Hi-Fi Choice magazine and they say the arm is 17g effective mass which is quite high so finding a compatible cart these days will be a bit more difficult as only modern moving coils on the whole match this.

They also say the deck has a suspension but it's not that effective and will benefit from wall mounting so putting it on a shelf will be the most important sonic consideration.

Aside from this they criticise the rigidity of the headshell so keep an eye out for an ADC magnesium one on Ebay, which will also reduce the arm mass slightly. Shouldn't cost more than 20USD. But I wouldn't worry too much about this at the moment.

They also say the mat could have been heavier but I would think it's probably better than the rubber mats commonly available today. Again long term you'll probably be better off with a silicon or acrylic mat but don't bother with this now.

Much more important is the cartridge. If you can tell me the model of the Empire cart then I shall see if I can find out anything further. Empire made some very good carts so you might have got lucky here and I have been able to track down spare a stylus for an Empire of mine so it's certainly possible.

http://www.lpgear.com/ still have ADC QLM 32 MKIII carts which are a perfect match for your tonearm and were very well reviewed back in the day for 50USD so that would be the cheapest one I could find.
If you really get into vinyl in the long term a Denon 103 Moving coil would probably be the current favourite but these are a few hundred bucks and of course you'll need a phono stage capable of running moving coils which don't come cheap ( Dynavector make a nice one for around 700USD )

Thanks for all of the information about my soon-to-be first turntable, memepool! You've gone the extra mile and provided a ton of useful information (as always). I owe ya one.

I figured the only difference between the PL-400 and something like the PL-560 was the amount of possible adjustments. The 560 and 570 certainly have a lot more buttons.

I remember seeing the PL-400X in your "No budget vinyl source" list... Is this a slight upgrade from the regular PL-400, or possibly just the European version?

So, overall, would you say that the review was generally positive? Besides the potential of having to look (and pay) for a moving coil cart / capable preamp, are there any downsides to having a heavy tonearm / headshell?

I'll check out the Empire cartridge as soon as it arrives.

About the mat... I was thinking about putting together the TNT Janus mat as a replacement / upgrade. TNT Audio seems to have a lot of good DIY turntable stuff, like a cheap DIY record cleaning mixture. $24.95 for a bottle of modified soapy water doesn't sound very cost-effective.

Also, for anyone reading this thread, I managed to find the manual for the Pioneer PL-400 for free at Vinyl Engine in the Library section. They have many other brands and tables, too. So cool, especially considering the prices that places are charging for contemporary manuals in PDF form.

no problem glad to be of help.

The review was very favourable but I think Hi-Fi Choice magazine generally found some fault with every turntable back then except perhaps the Linn Sondek which was/is of course perfect

Pioneer were one of the best turntable makers in Japan in the 1970s and the lack of suspension thing is just a different design concept rather than a flaw. It's just that most houses in the UK have suspended wooden floors so the testing environment didn't favour decks which aimed at high mass for isolation. They did test them on wall shelves as well though and (guess what) there was always a great improvement. The X was probably just a European addition as you say.

The trend in tonearm's (in Europe anyway) back then was towards lower mass designs which require a more springy cartidge suspension and away from high mass and moving coils. The pendulum swung back in the '80s when companies like Rega and SME began to design with rigidity as the main paradigm and tonearms have been mostly medium mass ever since.

There is nothing wrong with high mass designs per se it just means that you need to match it with a lower compliance cart to keep the resonances out of the audible band.

You can also reduce the mass of the arm by swapping the 10.5gm Pioneer one for a lower mass headshell like the ADC magnesium ones. If you can get the arm mass down to 13gms or so it will be compatible with pretty much most carts on the market these days.

MC carts have always been more expensive as they are harder to make and they generally need higher quality phono stages requiring more gain.Lots of vintage amps have these facilities but new phonostages which are designed for moving coil tend to be expensive these days.

There are exceptions like the Denon DL110 http://www.amazon.com/Denon-DL110-Ou.../dp/B000I1YLG0 which has a higher output and can run on a regular MM phonostage.The ADC MM cart I mentioned is very good though and there are bound to be others around.


As far as mats go everyone including Linn used rubber back then apart from vestigal type designs like Transcriptors and Bang and Olufsen so magazines generally just criticised the weight of the rubber!

Mats are important to reduce ringing in metal platters and adavnces have been made by using materials like acrylic and more complex plastics which work better than rubber and needn't be expensive. Look on ebay. By all means make a cork one. I've never tried one personally but it will certainly influence the sound whether it's better than rubber is pretty subjective.