[theveterans]

I am indeed pursuing endgame, which for me will be I can't tell a noticeable difference anymore.

I'm sorry to tell you in advance that the more high end you go the more noticeable the difference is perceived. No endgame in this hobby unless you're content with THX amps or NFCA amps that all sound more or less the same within their lineup

 

[Spawn300Z]

That’s a fair assessment and I agree. My caution to him was simply because it seemed he was jumping the gun a bit, going from zero to a hundred. It’s much harder to understand all the nuances and differences in between, which can give you an even better appreciation for the value its capabilities.

It’s akin to jumping from a Nissan 300Z (assuming that’s what your name is referring to… **side note: I used to love Todd McFarland’s Spawn!**) all the way to a Bugatti Chiron and not understanding the difference other than the Chiron is top of the line and has a faster top speed, while not understand/appreciating how different they drive. Also, missing the fact that along the way up to that, he could gained the experienced and possibly even been satisfied with the Nissan GTR (The R34 was one of my favorites, by the way!). OR possibly learning individual preferences, that he would have much preferred something say like a Koenigsegg Jesko, Pagani Huayra, or an Aston Martin Valkyrie. Dramatic examples belaboring the point, I know, but I digress.

All that said, I agree, it’s most likely money and time saved and he made some great equipment choices so far!

You probably didn’t know you hit two of my favorite things in your analogy.

 

[Aetherhole]

You probably didn’t know you hit two of my favorite things in your analogy.

Loved that car back in the 90’s; our family had one, but my brother total‘ed it on a freeway interchange. He was just fine, but it was a sad day for the 300ZX.

I assumed about the 300Z by your username, though!

 

[Spawn300Z]

Loved that car back in the 90’s; our family had one, but my brother total‘ed it on a freeway interchange. He was just fine, but it was a sad day for the 300ZX.

I assumed about the 300Z by your username, though!

That’s true forgot it was there. My call sign Soawn was already taken. So I added that.

 

[chrisgee5]

That’s a fair assessment and I agree. My caution to him was simply because it seemed he was jumping the gun a bit, going from zero to a hundred. It’s much harder to understand all the nuances and differences in between, which can give you an even better appreciation for the value its capabilities.

It’s akin to jumping from a Nissan 300Z (assuming that’s what your name is referring to… **side note: I used to love Todd McFarland’s Spawn!**) all the way to a Bugatti Chiron and not understanding the difference other than the Chiron is top of the line and has a faster top speed, while not understand/appreciating how different they drive. Also, missing the fact that along the way up to that, he could gained the experienced and possibly even been satisfied with the Nissan GTR (The R34 was one of my favorites, by the way!). OR possibly learning individual preferences, that he would have much preferred something say like a Koenigsegg Jesko, Pagani Huayra, or an Aston Martin Valkyrie. Dramatic examples belaboring the point, I know, but I digress.

All that said, I agree, it’s most likely money and time saved and he made some great equipment choices so far!

I can appreciate that, and I have questioned that myself. I love sports cars and upgraded over the years to recently end at a TOTL model. Accordingly, because of the journey I can talk about engine feel, handling, and braking like others on here can describe sounds. I've sold myself short a bit on my audio experience. I've had a decent 2 channel NAD systems, and I spent many trips to audio stores when they used to exist., I remember going to one place and listening to good/better/best. The best was a Mark Levinson/Wilson system where I could hear her lips smack as she sang. Amazing. I heard a Dan D'Agostino system that was spectacular. I'd happily purchase that 2-channel experience in a HP set up, but I don't fully know what that looks like yet.

So I might be on a journey to endgame like everyone else, albeit a shorter one because I cut ahead, and my main challenge is more about finding what sound I like. Maybe I listen to 6-8 flagship headphones and stick with the ones that suit me. Since I like tubes, maybe I tube roll the Luna, or try the different sound of the WA33 or other top tubes. Maybe I try half a dozen of the top solid-state amps (Mass kobo, riviera, Zahl, DCS, etc) to figure out what/if that suites me. And then go up the Chord stack or try a May or something. Not to mention cables.

So while I might have jumped ahead, I still think I could have some experimenting and learning ahead with a truncated list!

 

[chrisgee5]

I'm sorry to tell you in advance that the more high end you go the more noticeable the difference is perceived. No endgame in this hobby unless you're content with THX amps or NFCA amps that all sound more or less the same within their lineup

Even better! My only constraint is not hearing a difference to justify upgrading, which is what I assumed I was near hitting. I would be thrilled if there is noticeable improvement from where I'm currently at! It's already enjoyable.

That said, if you are willing to make the investment you have to be able to hit an endgame after you chose from the small-ish set of end game choices, no? Unless you are a person not being satisfied 95%, which I'm not. How would I go up the tube chain from the Luna, for example?

 

[chrisgee5]

You probably didn’t know you hit two of my favorite things in your analogy.

Love those cars!

 

[orrman]

How would I go up the tube chain from the Luna, for example?

Specifically with Susvara the next tier over Luna is Riviera AIC-10, Trafomatic Primavera, Viva Egoista 845 to name a few examples

The Luna is a terrific pairing with Susvara and is probably my favorite tube amp (excluding hybrids). Specifically in your case after reading your signature, you're absolutely bottlenecking the system with the qutest.

 

[Aetherhole]

I can appreciate that, and I have questioned that myself. I love sports cars and upgraded over the years to recently end at a TOTL model. Accordingly, because of the journey I can talk about engine feel, handling, and braking like others on here can describe sounds. I've sold myself short a bit on my audio experience. I've had a decent 2 channel NAD systems, and I spent many trips to audio stores when they used to exist., I remember going to one place and listening to good/better/best. The best was a Mark Levinson/Wilson system where I could hear her lips smack as she sang. Amazing. I heard a Dan D'Agostino system that was spectacular. I'd happily purchase that 2-channel experience in a HP set up, but I don't fully know what that looks like yet.

So I might be on a journey to endgame like everyone else, albeit a shorter one because I cut ahead, and my main challenge is more about finding what sound I like. Maybe I listen to 6-8 flagship headphones and stick with the ones that suit me. Since I like tubes, maybe I tube roll the Luna, or try the different sound of the WA33 or other top tubes. Maybe I try half a dozen of the top solid-state amps (Mass kobo, riviera, Zahl, DCS, etc) to figure out what/if that suites me. And then go up the Chord stack or try a May or something. Not to mention cables.

So while I might have jumped ahead, I still think I could have some experimenting and learning ahead with a truncated list!

Well, the nice thing is you’ve picked an all-round fantastic amp! There’s not many at all that are higher than it and most still around the Luna’s price point are just ”different flavors” essentially. I’m nearing the top of my summit myself and it’s been a fun journey. I get it though, some don’t want to (or need to) go through the full journey. Tube-rolling is still something to do.

I am still a big solid state amp fan, so the need for one to fill my fancy is there (hence the reason why I ended up preordering the Zahl HM1). I would highly recommend checking out any and, if possible, ALL the ones you mentioned to see what suits your needs, too.

I’m really happy with my headphone cables — would recommend checking out Arctic Cables and seeing their offerings as you are begin looking. Love, love, love their Opera v2 for the Susvara (and I also have their Talos v2). Others have their own personal brand recommendations, but my experience with AC has been stellar so far.

I’m with @orrman though, I think you are bottlenecking the system a bit with the Qutest. I really, really like the Ferrum Wandla, but I think I might land on the May KTE eventually. Just really like the Wandla though, so it’s hard for me to want to jump ship. Not only Chord or Holo May, but you could also take a close look at the Denafrips Terminator 2 or the Rockna Wavedream if you‘re reaching for endgame DACs, too.

 

[theveterans]

Don’t forget the Mola Mola Tambaqui and Bartok Apex as well. Those two are great choices along with the Rockna Wavedream and IMHO above May’s level

 

[Newsee]

Even better! My only constraint is not hearing a difference to justify upgrading, which is what I assumed I was near hitting. I would be thrilled if there is noticeable improvement from where I'm currently at! It's already enjoyable.

That said, if you are willing to make the investment you have to be able to hit an endgame after you chose from the small-ish set of end game choices, no? Unless you are a person not being satisfied 95%, which I'm not. How would I go up the tube chain from the Luna, for example?

I agree with the previous posts, I would address the DAC as next step up.

This is how the Luna with Rockna Wavedream looks like:

It was terrific what it brought out of the Meze 109 Pro. I have a Wavelight, it does not have to hide either.
I have auditioned the Molamola once, it could be an endgame machine alone.

One more aspect to consider: a decent streamer adds not only comfort, but increases clarity, stage and removes digital glare compared to feeding the dac directly from a computer.

 

[Johnsmith55]

Yep

Overall good? I hope it’s not just high on treble and over analytical, and doesn’t fatigue. I’m assuming you auditioned it? If you did can you describe its overall body sound? I’m thinking of making the plunge.

 

[chrisgee5]

Well, the nice thing is you’ve picked an all-round fantastic amp! There’s not many at all that are higher than it and most still around the Luna’s price point are just ”different flavors” essentially. I’m nearing the top of my summit myself and it’s been a fun journey. I get it though, some don’t want to (or need to) go through the full journey. Tube-rolling is still something to do.

I am still a big solid state amp fan, so the need for one to fill my fancy is there (hence the reason why I ended up preordering the Zahl HM1). I would highly recommend checking out any and, if possible, ALL the ones you mentioned to see what suits your needs, too.

I’m really happy with my headphone cables — would recommend checking out Arctic Cables and seeing their offerings as you are begin looking. Love, love, love their Opera v2 for the Susvara (and I also have their Talos v2). Others have their own personal brand recommendations, but my experience with AC has been stellar so far.

I’m with @orrman though, I think you are bottlenecking the system a bit with the Qutest. I really, really like the Ferrum Wandla, but I think I might land on the May KTE eventually. Just really like the Wandla though, so it’s hard for me to want to jump ship. Not only Chord or Holo May, but you could also take a close look at the Denafrips Terminator 2 or the Rockna Wavedream if you‘re reaching for endgame DACs, too.

Y'all make sense. @orrman mentions pairings with the Susvara. At summit fi levels do you pick a favorite headphone and optimize around one HP, or lead with your favorite and the others match as they might? Or at that level should the amps make most hi-end phones sound great regardless. At summit-fi do you usually end up going with only one amp?

So if I create a summit fi list, what else would you add, with a limit of $20K on any one item? I think I have a handle on HPs.

• Tube/Hybrid - Riviera AIC-10, Trafomatic Primavera, Viva Egoista 845, ?
• Solid state - Mass Kobo, Zahl?
• DAC - Mola Mola Tambaqui and Bartok Apex, Wavedream, Dave, "I'll be back" Terminator 2, Holo May(be),

Alternatively, would you consider the Orpheus 2 or Shangri-la (yeah a little over 20k + 20k but close enough), or does that only make sense if that exactly matches one’s sound preference.

So how does one go about testing this in reality? I assume you have to hear these in your home over an extended period of time, and it becomes a King Of the Hill based on A/B testing. Do you bring in a new component to go up against what you are contemplating replacing, and keep the better one and sell the other off. Is it easy to sell used $10-15k gear? The losses you would incur along the way is just the tax you pay in this hobby I assume.

 

[theveterans]

Depends really on how much money you can sink into the hobby. Some have multiple endgame systems optimized for each TOTL headphone while some can get very generous 15 day rental with a low restocking fee. I’d never blind buy at the top levels though and auditioning each of these endgame components IMHO requires at least a very high quality ICs (snake river audio mamushi series ICs for example) to ensure that you’re getting the best synergy with your amps and DACs that you will audition at home

 

[chrisgee5]

Depends really on how much money you can sink into the hobby. Some have multiple endgame systems optimized for each TOTL headphone while some can get very generous 15 day rental with a low restocking fee. I’d never blind buy at the top levels though and auditioning each of these endgame components IMHO requires at least a very high quality ICs (snake river audio mamushi series ICs for example) to ensure that you’re getting the best synergy with your amps and DACs that you will audition at home

So you have to find a dealer that has them and go audition? Probably need to go to a big city for that I assume. I didn't find much locally in Austin (which is not a small metro area), or I didn't look hard enough. Maybe I could look in Dallas or Houston.

EDIT: Or did I read you wrong that some offer 15 day trials with restocking?