[2 channel]

Since you went ahead and did it Russ...

I'm sure for every argument or so called evidential proof you can give me on evolution, I can give you one on creation. and yes I have studied evolution from a scientific point of view and no it doesn't hold up. Would be happy to continue a friendly stimulating open minded discussion off list if you want to.

imagesetter1@cs.com

sorry, couldn't let it pass either

 

[setmenu]

 

[chewmanji]

Quote:

originally posted by 2 channel and why is it ok for evolutionists to propose that the theory of creation is fundamentally wrong but it's never ok the other way around?

i'm not saying that it's right going the other way, and i'm not trying to start a debate on evolutionism vs creationism; all i'm saying is that people really need to be more open minded about things. give the kids a chance to choose what they believe in.

i think it's perfectly reasonable for parents to exert a certain amount of influence on their child's faith, but to say 'because you/we are christian, evolution is wrong and you shouldn't listen to that one song lyric because it alludes to evolution,' i really think that's going too far.

Quote:

originally posted by TaffyGuy that sounds more like communist china, and you don't want to be communist china, do you?

my point exactly!

oh BTW, andrzejpw, i am only 18 years old myself. and my childhood is/was more or less like yours. actually, we share MANY similarities in our young lives. my PUs (Parental Units) were strict, didn't talk to me about sex at all (still haven't), and yes, i do believe i'm a better person because of it. still, that's nowhere as bad as telling your kid that you prayed for a baby and a stork would bring it. (maybe at age 6 or something, but not 12)

Quote:

originally posted by gloco How is his disposition?

hehe, although i honestly had no part in it, he was sufficiently corrupted in high school.

oh, i forgot to compliment Russ on an, as usual well written reply.

 

[dougli]

Nice choice of a topic, gloco. Seriously, it's generated some interesting, thought-provoking replies.

What's next? Abortion? Gay rights?

 

[grinch]

i'd have to agree with 2-channel. there isn't any perfect evidence to support either of them and there are plenty of "strong supports" for both (/me bites tongue).

i think at some point i just went with how i felt. i sat down on a beach and looked at the world. looked at the ocean and thought about the millions and millions of organisms in it and how diverse everyone of them is. then i thought of another extreme: a rainforest for instance. all the organisms in that, from the large to the microscopic. i thought of fields and predators; lions and tigers, antelope and hyenas, pitbulls and siamese cats. now i am the first to vouce for the idea that this is not scientific at all. however, through life experience i have decided that it's very tough to trust anything you haven't touched/seen/done yourself. people are way too stupid to get everything right and nobody should go just on somebody else's word for something like this. i thought of all these things, set my ego aside, and said to myself, "and i'm supposed to think that all of that happened by accident?"

case closed.

oh and please keep the flaming to yourself. this post is definitely devoid of humor, so it shouldn't be any different than my other posts.

[size=xx-small]"third eye (live)" comes through my headphones, and i hear over and over "think for yourself, question authority.."[/size]

 

[acs236]

I would be interested in yacking about evolution if you guys were to start another thread, but I certainly understand if you don't want to. Someone always makes some obnixous comment armed with multiple "!" and the thread gets closed!!!!!!!!

I'm in a reasonably unique position because I'm pretty much an atheist, but I have some scientific problems with mainstread evolutionary theory. I've also benefitted from a bit of schooling on the subject.

 

[TaffyGuy]

right grinch, case closed. my point obviously didn't come across... and now i'm being accused of being narrow minded as well it seems.

EDIT: okay my point was that having problems with the "darwin" theory isn't an argument for creationism. i'm sorry, it just breaks the rules of debate. thats like the "underwear gnome" theroy. oh no, wait the underwear gnomes were real!?!?! (i lost my underwear so gnomes must have stolen it)

arguing with religious people is worse than arguing with idiots. at least with the idiots its clear to ONE OF US that i'm right and they're wrong.

also, 2, i don't think "cuz god said so" or "its in the bible" can be held up as an argument on this topic...

but i am actually curious about this. i remember at school i was sitting on a bench between classes and a couple of kids from the christian asian club came and started a creationism conversation with me. i really think i might have swayed them towards science a bit in those 30 short minutes...

i do have to say that the whole existance of the argument really says something about human nature, and the power of wills and culture and upbringing. i mean, i can't even imagine all the crap stupid notions i must have and don't even realize, considering what all is posible. a hundred and fifty years ago it was perfectly normal to OWN people. i can't even imagine looking out my back window and not just flipping out. you can believe anything if you try hard enough.

 

[KR...]

Poor thread, it started off as a silly joke and turn into a even sillier joke, good job guys!

 

[kerelybonto]

ai0tron's post in this thread was actually productive! Amazing!

It's strange how everyone who labels himself "Christian" (in this and previous threads) on Head-Fi seems to be fundamentalist Christian. I know many, many people, Christians all, who would find the content of the Focus on the Family website laughable, and who have no problem with the theory of evolution.

In fact, I went to a Catholic high school, wherein we used a biology text (at least in first-year biology -- we used a better one in AP) that gave recognition to the theories of intelligent design, extraterrestrial intervention, and whatever else widely debunked theories on the origins of life and then went straight into evolution. Why? -- because it's science, which, recall, is (as defined by Merriam-Webster) "knowledge as distinguished from ignorance or misunderstanding." I readily admit that intelligent design could be right and evolution wrong. I'm also smart enough to know that if that were the case, it wouldn't matter. (I'll be happy to discuss that, but it's getting way too off-topic, even in this fat thread.)

I mean, even the Pope says that evolution does not conflict with church teachings. I really think that most people who call themselves fundamentalist haven't read the Bible. Or maybe they saw the words, but that's not understanding.

kerelybonto

 

[Russ Arcuri]

Quote:

Originally posted by 2 channel Since you went ahead and did it Russ...

Uh, no... I didn't start a debate; your comment about there being no evidence for evolution was an invitation to debate if I ever saw one. Quote:

I'm sure for every argument or so called evidential proof you can give me on evolution, I can give you one on creation.

Please don't change terminology on me. I never said there was "proof." I said the evidence in support of evolution is strong, while the evidence for creationism is weak, and doesn't hold up to close scrutiny. Quote:

and yes I have studied evolution from a scientific point of view and no it doesn't hold up.

It would be really difficult to respond to this statement without indirectly insulting you. I could guess that you don't have a very strong background or understanding of science, but you would likely be offended if I did. I could question how much study you've actually put in on this subject, since I believe that anyone of reasonable intelligence, a critical mind, and the desire to research the topic fully would realize just how strong the evidence for evolution is and just how weak the counterarguments are. But to question that would be to imply that you lack one of the necessary traits or that you've not been honest in your assessment of the time you've spent.

Instead of getting involved in a big debate, which has been done thousands of times on various internet and USENET forums, never to any avail, I'll simply suggest some reading for you. The Blind Watchmaker, by Richard Dawkins is a good book to start with, though you'll have to have some reasonably good (college-level) understanding of biology to understand it, as opposed to simply accepting it. Darwin's Dangerous Idea: Evolution and the Meaning of Life, by Daniel Clement Dennett, explains why the arguments against evolution made by 'respected' scientists (the pseudo-scientists I referred to in my first post) don't hold up to scrutiny.

You might also do some reading about complex systems, and how they can grow up out of very simple rules. It is often argued by creationists that the amazing complexity and diversity of life could not have come into being without intelligent design. This is a romantic idea -- one which people WANT to believe, but the mathematics of complex systems demonstrate that the basic principle doesn't hold up. Richard Dawkins actually does a very good job of explaining how complexity and diversity can arise from simple beginnings through natural processes in The Blind Watchmaker, but for some people the mathematical approach is more easily understood.

Finally, I'll point you to a few web articles, with the caveat that a short article on the web is (by definition) not going to be long enough to explain anything in a thorough manner. But the principles explained in these articles might get you thinking or point you to better sources of information.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mevolution.html
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/...tionreply.html
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbigbangmyth.html
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mmicromacroev.html

 

[meithkiller]

I really think the most productive thing that could happen to this thread at this point is to have it locked or deleted, at least the last page or so. I am a Christian, I don't call my self a fundamentalist (although others might), if anything I would consider myself a Biblicist, since I prefer to take what the Bible says as a whole, and by faith, believe it. I have read, and do read the Bible, so Biblical illiteracy isn't a problem with me. Either "theory" if you want to call them that, needs a certain amount of faith to believe them, there isn't 100% irrefutable physical proof (without gaps) for either side. Some things are missing for a complete physical explanation.

It seems some people seem to start to resort to insults when arguments break down or they get frustrated, and this can't do anything but hurt the head-fi community as a whole. I don't think anyone has really been challenged or caused to change their mind by this argument over creationism vs evolution, if anything, just become more obstinate in their already held beliefs.

I can respect people who believe in the theory of evolution, after all there is scientific proof to validate at least some parts of the theory. It seems though that since I believe that the universe was created by an intelligent, powerful creator, I must be simple minded and rather backwards according to some of you. That is one thing that (I thought) made this message board so great, some people prefer Grado, and to them there is nothing better, some feel the same way about Sennheiser, Ety, etc, and most people can respect other head-fiers own personal preferences without starting long threads about Ety being better than Sennheiser or Grado.

Oh well, just my .02 worth, although it doesn't seem to be even worth that much here.....

-Keith

 

[gloco]

Quote:

Originally posted by dougli Nice choice of a topic, gloco. Seriously, it's generated some interesting, thought-provoking replies. What's next? Abortion? Gay rights?

Cool, thanks. I'm glad people are having a good discussion on this topic regarding religion vs. popular entertainment.

In my opinion, i think the people who run that site are so out of line. Not everything is about religion, at least when i was raised. I think its really up to the parent to decide when they can let their children watch a R rated movie or listen to music that may stimulate their thinking beyond disney sponsored entertainment.

I grew up listening and watching whatever may have been aimed for adults, i sures hell didn't grow up with a skewed interpretation of life.

Maybe Abortion would be an interesting topic....

 

[markl]

No evidence for evolution????????????

*sigh* A recent poll showed that over 50% of the American people believe the sun orbits the earth. We are a nation of science illiterates. So very depressing....

markl

 

[gloco]

Quote:

Originally posted by meithkiller I really think the most productive thing that could happen to this thread at this point is to have it locked or deleted, at least the last page or so. I am a Christian, I don't call my self a fundamentalist (although others might), if anything I would consider myself a Biblicist, since I prefer to take what the Bible says as a whole, and by faith, believe it. I have read, and do read the Bible, so Biblical illiteracy isn't a problem with me. Either "theory" if you want to call them that, needs a certain amount of faith to believe them, there isn't 100% irrefutable physical proof (without gaps) for either side. Some things are missing for a complete physical explanation. It seems some people seem to start to resort to insults when arguments break down or they get frustrated, and this can't do anything but hurt the head-fi community as a whole. I don't think anyone has really been challenged or caused to change their mind by this argument over creationism vs evolution, if anything, just become more obstinate in their already held beliefs. I can respect people who believe in the theory of evolution, after all there is scientific proof to validate at least some parts of the theory. It seems though that since I believe that the universe was created by an intelligent, powerful creator, I must be simple minded and rather backwards according to some of you. That is one thing that (I thought) made this message board so great, some people prefer Grado, and to them there is nothing better, some feel the same way about Sennheiser, Ety, etc, and most people can respect other head-fiers own personal preferences without starting long threads about Ety being better than Sennheiser or Grado. Apparently there are a lot more narrow miunded and intolerant people on there than I though. Oh well, just my .02 worth, although it doesn't seem to be even worth that much here..... -Keith

your basically saying this thread should be locked or deleted because blasphemy is being occured due to the fact some people are arguing against you?

You sound a lot like the folks that run that site. Keep this thread rolling please.

 

[meithkiller]

Quote:

Originally posted by gloco your basically saying this thread should be locked or deleted because blasphemy is being occured due to the fact some people are arguing against you? You sound a lot like the folks that run that site. Keep this thread rolling please.

Wow, where in the heck did you get that? I said nothing about blasphemy, or the fact that people are arguing aginst me. This was my first post to have anything to do with the evolution vs creationism debate. My point, if it wasn't clear enough for you, was that it seems this post is starting to resort to insults, which only hurts the community as a whole. I guess some people would rather argue than........oh well, I'm giving up on this crap, it has pretty much degenerated into something much worse than the crap it started out with (insulting Christians).

Have a nice life.....

-Keith