X-Can (V3) tube rollers, a moment of your time
Sep 6, 2006 at 9:20 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 24

MayorSimpleton

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I just begun the long and winding road to tube heaven - doing my first rolling experiment with some tubes I've gathered.

6n23-EB
6N1P-EB
stock Philips Jan's.

First up - I'm surprised to find that despite pretty much unanimous rejection of the stock Jan's across the web - I like them better than the others I tried! Am I losing the plot? The 6N23-EB's which I expected to be easily the best - I liked least. They had more bass, (almost too much) but I didn't like what they did to the mids and highs. In fact I didn't like them at all. The 6N1P-EB's had potential but I'm too frightened to leave them in until I get a better power supply. What would happen if I left them in with the stock supply?

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that lot, and secondly, where would you suggest I go next? Can you recommend something else thats easily obtainable and not too expensive for me to try? (I've not been able to source Mullards at all, and I can't find the much vaunted 6N23P-EB at a decent price either).

Your input appreciated,

Pluck
 
Sep 6, 2006 at 10:01 PM Post #2 of 24
First off: I am not a tube specialist like some here. But I did try several tubes on my X-can v3.
The Mullards are quite expensive, but I suspect you wouldn't like them: they are warmer and bassier than the ones you already tried. They where teriffic with my DT880s, but too dark and over-emphasising the low end for my HD650s (to my taste).
If you like it more neutral and detailed and leaner on the bass you could try the Philips Miniwatt SQ. They are reasonably priced (I paid $25 for a pair if I remember correctly). They where a bit too cold to my taste, but very fast and detailed.
I am now running the 6N1P. I am still not decided what I think of them, compared to the 6N23-EB.
Hope this helps a bit.
 
Sep 6, 2006 at 10:22 PM Post #3 of 24
Remember, most of the reports about the JAN philips 6922 sounding "shrill" or "glassy" or even "screechy" were from X-CAN [size=large]V2[/size] users. I actually like the Philips 6922 in the V3, pretty much on the neutral side and very involving. I think, to be honest, most of the negative reports came from people who had an "iffy" pair or a pair that were past their best, you tend not to hear a lot from the thousands of users who just listen to their X-CAN and enjoy it without ever going under the hood, you only tend to hear the negatives from people who are never satisfied, always striving for better or just simply party to a faulty pair of Valves.

The 6H23N-EB take a good while to bed in, and I mean 200 or so hours. There are so many people who have said "don't like them as much as the....." and then 3 days later they are "actually, wow!, yes!, oh god they're good!" Obviously they may not be to everyone's taste but do give them an opportunity to remain in the circuit for a good while.

6N1P is fine with the V3, yes the wallwart will run a bit warmer as the 6N1P's heating current is almost double that of the 6922 but in use I have not come across any problems other than a slightly warmer wart. Upping to something like a 12 - 0 - 12 VCT 30VA transformer would certainly not be a bad idea if you were planning on using the "fantastic" 6N1P-EB long term.
 
Sep 6, 2006 at 11:09 PM Post #4 of 24
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sgt-Pluck
I just begun the long and winding road to tube heaven - doing my first rolling experiment with some tubes I've gathered.

6n23-EB
6N1P-EB
stock Philips Jan's.

First up - I'm surprised to find that despite pretty much unanimous rejection of the stock Jan's across the web - I like them better than the others I tried! Am I losing the plot? The 6N23-EB's which I expected to be easily the best - I liked least. They had more bass, (almost too much) but I didn't like what they did to the mids and highs. In fact I didn't like them at all. The 6N1P-EB's had potential but I'm too frightened to leave them in until I get a better power supply. What would happen if I left them in with the stock supply?

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that lot, and secondly, where would you suggest I go next? Can you recommend something else thats easily obtainable and not too expensive for me to try? (I've not been able to source Mullards at all, and I can't find the much vaunted 6N23P-EB at a decent price either).

Your input appreciated,

Pluck



I assume the 6N23's are not the same as the 6H23N's from the Saratov factory - correct?

What brands are the 6N23's and 6N1P's - Voshkod (Rocket logos), or some others?

Yes... one MF tech suggests that using the 6N1P's are risky, unless you have the XPSU, or other upgraded PSU - and even then, he cautioned me to check to make sure nothing is overheating. I guess another has suggested it's safe to use them. But... I've not had the courage to try them yet either.

Yes... I thought I liked the stock tubes the best too, because they're brighter and clearer, especially with the Senns (which need that). But... I've recently returned to my Saratov 6H23N's and they sound much better, the more burn-in they get - much more clear and detailed the more they burn-in, and the bass seems to have tightened up, and they've gotten brighter. I think, I'll leave them a while to see if they improve even more.
 
Sep 6, 2006 at 11:12 PM Post #5 of 24
Quote:

Originally Posted by PinkFloyd
Remember, most of the reports about the JAN philips 6922 sounding "shrill" or "glassy" or even "screechy" were from X-CAN [size=large]V2[/size] users. I actually like the Philips 6922 in the V3, pretty much on the neutral side and very involving. I think, to be honest, most of the negative reports came from people who had an "iffy" pair or a pair that were past their best, you tend not to hear a lot from the thousands of users who just listen to their X-CAN and enjoy it without ever going under the hood, you only tend to hear the negatives from people who are never satisfied, always striving for better or just simply party to a faulty pair of Valves.

The 6H23N-EB take a good while to bed in, and I mean 200 or so hours. There are so many people who have said "don't like them as much as the....." and then 3 days later they are "actually, wow!, yes!, oh god they're good!" Obviously they may not be to everyone's taste but do give them an opportunity to remain in the circuit for a good while.

6N1P is fine with the V3, yes the wallwart will run a bit warmer as the 6N1P's heating current is almost double that of the 6922 but in use I have not come across any problems other than a slightly warmer wart. Upping to something like a 12 - 0 - 12 VCT 30VA transformer would certainly not be a bad idea if you were planning on using the "fantastic" 6N1P-EB long term.



As noted above... that seems to have been my experience also with the Saratov 6H23N's.

So... you also prefer the 6N1P's with the v3? How do they compare to the 6H23N's, or stock tubes? Do you think the XPSU v3 is sufficient for them to avoid damaging either the amp, or PSU?
 
Sep 7, 2006 at 9:19 AM Post #7 of 24
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gradofan2
I assume the 6N23's are not the same as the 6H23N's from the Saratov factory - correct?

What brands are the 6N23's and 6N1P's - Voshkod (Rocket logos), or some others?

Yes... one MF tech suggests that using the 6N1P's are risky, unless you have the XPSU, or other upgraded PSU - and even then, he cautioned me to check to make sure nothing is overheating. I guess another has suggested it's safe to use them. But... I've not had the courage to try them yet either.

Yes... I thought I liked the stock tubes the best too, because they're brighter and clearer, especially with the Senns (which need that). But... I've recently returned to my Saratov 6H23N's and they sound much better, the more burn-in they get - much more clear and detailed the more they burn-in, and the bass seems to have tightened up, and they've gotten brighter. I think, I'll leave them a while to see if they improve even more.



My 6N23-EB are Rostok (black bear logo) and the 6N1P are Svetlana.
The 6N1P are in no way running the amp or psu (the standard, not the x-psu)hot at all.
 
Sep 7, 2006 at 10:26 AM Post #8 of 24
As I say, I've had no problems at all running the 6N1P "as is" in either the V2 or V3... if you look at them in operation they don't run that bright in either amp... I'd consider them a plug and play alternative to 6922 "with" the standard 500mA wallwarts but they probably would benefit from the extra welly a 1000mA PSU could supply if required. On their own in the standard set up (500mA) they perform very well and are comparable to the sonics of 6922 / 6DJ8, obviously with their own "house sound", but are far cheaper than either. If you are going to use them then try to source the military version which are 6N1P-EB, they're built like brick craphouses, last forever and don't suffer from microphonics like some of the standard versions can. These guys don't work in the X-10D so don't try them, it'll spit them out.

I'm working on a very compact "desktop" PSU for the V3 at the moment and hope to be able to upload the "plan" very shortly, I'm just waiting for the PSU enclosure to arrive. It'll be based around a 30VA 12 - 0 - 12V low-profile encapsulated transformer on twin double section bobbins (4 coil structure) which provides maximum isolation and achieves a low interwinding capacitance. Superb regulation and "compact" is what I'm trying to achieve, the unit will be housed in a 131 x 75 x 62mm heavy duty ABS enclosure with power in at one end and 12 - 0 - 12V out at the other end terminated with a Neutrik 3 pin DIN plug. Basically a high quality 30VA desktop "Power Brick".

As I say, I'll upload plans and parts list once I'm satisfied that this is the "ultimate" PSU for the V3. It can be configured to 115V or 230V so can be used worldwide and the same "engine" can be used to power the V2 with a few adjustments to the secondary terminals.
 
Sep 7, 2006 at 10:37 AM Post #9 of 24
Thanks for the replies eveyone - very interesting.

Quote:

My 6N23-EB are Rostok (black bear logo) and the 6N1P are Svetlana.


Mine too, and I personally really don't rate the 6N23-EB.

So, given this, is it even worth trying to track down a reasonably priced pair of 6N23P-EB? I'd also love to know how you think the 6N23P-EB's compare to the 6N1P-EB, because if the later are equal to or better than the former - then I'll spend some time burning those in instead of trawling eBay!

It would be too boring to find that I prefer the stock Philips after all this!

Cheers,

Pluck
 
Sep 7, 2006 at 11:21 AM Post #10 of 24
"Officially" there is not supposed to be an audible difference between 6N1P and 6N1P-EB (or any xxxx and xxxx-EB). The EB stands for "Military grade build quality", they are built to last much longer. I never heard the 6N1P-EB so I cannot comment on that. Bennyboy has tried both and claims there is difference. I believe him, in my experience if there is a difference in build quality (however small) you can usually hear it.

Giving tubes ample time to burn in is alway a good thing.
It takes time for you to accustom to the differences too.
I know I am usually in the beginning far too much concentrated on the details and specific aspect of the SQ to realy hear (appreciate) what the sound is actually like. Take your time and don't judge too early.

I never heard the 6N23P, so I cannot comment on them either.

The stock tubes are in no way bad. They are perfectly good. Swapping tubes is for me only fine tuning the sound signature to better fit the specific phones I favour at the moment and my personal taste.
Perfectly possible that one day I end up with a pair of phones that I like best with the stock tubes.
rolleyes.gif
plainface.gif
eggosmile.gif
 
Sep 7, 2006 at 11:29 AM Post #11 of 24
Quote:

Originally Posted by PinkFloyd
As I say, I've had no problems at all running the 6N1P "as is" in either the V2 or V3... if you look at them in operation they don't run that bright in either amp... I'd consider them a plug and play alternative to 6922 "with" the standard 500mA wallwarts but they probably would benefit from the extra welly a 1000mA PSU could supply if required. On their own in the standard set up (500mA) they perform very well and are comparable to the sonics of 6922 / 6DJ8, obviously with their own "house sound", but are far cheaper than either. If you are going to use them then try to source the military version which are 6N1P-EB, they're built like brick craphouses, last forever and don't suffer from microphonics like some of the standard versions can. These guys don't work in the X-10D so don't try them, it'll spit them out.

I'm working on a very compact "desktop" PSU for the V3 at the moment and hope to be able to upload the "plan" very shortly, I'm just waiting for the PSU enclosure to arrive. It'll be based around a 30VA 12 - 0 - 12V low-profile encapsulated transformer on twin double section bobbins (4 coil structure) which provides maximum isolation and achieves a low interwinding capacitance. Superb regulation and "compact" is what I'm trying to achieve, the unit will be housed in a 131 x 75 x 62mm heavy duty ABS enclosure with power in at one end and 12 - 0 - 12V out at the other end terminated with a Neutrik 3 pin DIN plug. Basically a high quality 30VA desktop "Power Brick".

As I say, I'll upload plans and parts list once I'm satisfied that this is the "ultimate" PSU for the V3. It can be configured to 115V or 230V so can be used worldwide and the same "engine" can be used to power the V2 with a few adjustments to the secondary terminals.



I am realy interested in your PSU project. I tried X-PSU and as far as I could determine it did absolutely nothing for my X-can v3...
 
Sep 7, 2006 at 10:22 PM Post #13 of 24
Quote:

For those interested the Tesla's E88CC/6922 w/ gold pins are really coming on their own on the MF X-Can V3. Very clear, detailed, with tight bass. Very happy so far.


I'd love to hear how you get on with them. How long have they taken to burn in?

Pluck
 
Sep 8, 2006 at 1:36 AM Post #14 of 24
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sgt-Pluck
I'd love to hear how you get on with them. How long have they taken to burn in?

Pluck



Only 20 hours on them, very exhilarating tube. In the soft passages it is very mellow but rich in texture and clarity, in the highly complex passages it picks up pace and it is very clear and detailed.
 
Sep 8, 2006 at 2:45 AM Post #15 of 24
Like Sgt-Pluck I wouldn't mind some advice on tube choice for the X-can v3.

Following what Kees posted above about matching tubes to 'phones, I'd be interested on hearing you opinions on tubes for the k701's. I bought the v3 expecting to get the 650's but ended up with the akg's.

I've already replaced the stock tubes with the jj electronic's e88cc as recommended by 'Nick Dangerous' on the Rock Grotto site and found a great improvement in soundstage depth and size. The middle filled in and lost the slightly hollow sound that was present with the JAN Phillip's. Now, I don't know if that improvement was because the e88cc's are simply 'better' tubes or if the stock ones were on their way down (I bought the amp used and have no idea of the hours on the tubes).

Ideally I would like to add some life to the presentation. I would imagine that would involve getting some speed from the amp and not adding colour to the top end.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks

Rob
 

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