Why tubes but no equalization?
May 31, 2015 at 7:00 AM Post #91 of 107
theres reason why educated people looking for ultimate sound never EQ their headphones... post ringing aside,the phase shift or pre ringing you get with minimum/linear EQ is extremly bad,the whole reason R2R NOS dacs are so popular even through their horrible measurements and HF roll off is that they have perfect impulse response,no ringing and perfect time aligment,no rhythm killing transient softening shifts

The comment about "Educated People" is a personal attack, and it would be nice if we didn't have that sort of thing going on around here. If anybody wants to go hand-to-hand with me, I was a Sargent in the Army (Viet Nam era) and there are things one does not forget, trooper. Just get me a pass with the moderators! :wink:


Educated Ppl isn't an insult here, he could mean audio/electronics enigneers/tweakers/modders.
He's right, I don't use the ext. EQ way. I mod/tweak with better/different types internal (output) capacitors in the direct audio signal lines that'll have more "Coherent Linear EQ-ing" in-syncing all Frequency together than ext. EQ with separated freq EQ-ing.

Example: http://www.rock-grotto.co.uk/musicalfidelityxcanv3.htm
http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/thread/1921/capacitor-upgrade-v3


So those of us who disagree aren't educated?

That's the point of his insult.

Also, since we're debating phase shifts and ringing here, please point me to the non-existent before-after phase plots and square-wave oscilloscope plots :wink:
 
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May 31, 2015 at 9:23 AM Post #92 of 107
 
I'm one of those loons who likes the sound of my hybrid over my various SS amps.
Yet I use an EQ as needed. The RANE DEQ60L.

 
Classic pro audio tool.  Rane has been big in Eq for decades and made a lot of great analog Eqs, several of which I own.


I am a hybrid loon also. I have a Project Ember which can drive 32 to 600 ohms with authority. That is the beauty of hybrids. I use an ART EQ355 31 band hardware EQ. Good reviews.
 
FWIW: For those who might want to try EQ without spending any $$$, FooBar 2000 comes with a 21 band digital (software) EQ and you can download a 31 band version also.
 
May 31, 2015 at 1:23 PM Post #93 of 107
 
I am a hybrid loon also. I have a Project Ember which can drive 32 to 600 ohms with authority. That is the beauty of hybrids. I use an ART EQ355 31 band hardware EQ. Good reviews.
 
FWIW: For those who might want to try EQ without spending any $$$, FooBar 2000 comes with a 21 band digital (software) EQ and you can download a 31 band version also.

Nice! We need a club for "Hybrid Loons!"
 
May 31, 2015 at 4:13 PM Post #95 of 107
There's some guys turning on their tube amps..... 5 hours before listening.... Because it needs to warm up for some 5 hours......
Convenient.

My SS Mosfets seem to sound best when Class A is warm.
Tubes (preamp) at least 10 minutes

I adjust my EQ 1 db / hour.
Kidding about the EQ. I only use it when I have a badly mastered CD
 
May 31, 2015 at 8:37 PM Post #96 of 107
   
you have no idea whats going on,dont worry I will teach you padawan
 
ok,why EQ is horrible and should be avoided at all costs = pre/post ringing and phase shift,not just little but we are talking audible ringing and the amount of phase shift is just depressing.Phase shift and ringing are two worst types of distortion there is,ok except solid state/digital PCM clipping
 
ringing isnt harmonic distortion,whats worst with linear phase filters theres not only post ringing but pre ringing,its cancer of sound.It corrupts whole transient not only that its even before the transient hits,it destroy music rhythm and critical timing
 
tubes dont have ringing or phase shift,audio spectrum is coherent synchronized,solid,a natural pleasant,the original timing is left untouched.Tubes have noise whitch is audible only in super quiet parts,its rarely a problem and its just kind of soft noise not like hard clipping.........  tubes cant hardclip they soft clip.Also the tube distortion is harmonic,second order especialy its very pleasant,its soft and euphonic,people love it.
 
 
currently there is no technology that can do what tube does,becose there isnt EQ with zero phase shift AND zero ringing.

Oh.  I had no idea there were Jedi on this forum.
 
If EQ is so bad, can you explain why every studio recording for the past 75 years has used EQ to create the final product?

How can 'ringing' not be present in all these studio recordings but is rampant any EQ we might choose to employ?
 
May 31, 2015 at 9:05 PM Post #97 of 107
   
you have no idea whats going on,dont worry I will teach you padawan
 
ok,why EQ is horrible and should be avoided at all costs = pre/post ringing and phase shift,not just little but we are talking audible ringing and the amount of phase shift is just depressing.Phase shift and ringing are two worst types of distortion there is,ok except solid state/digital PCM clipping
 
ringing isnt harmonic distortion,whats worst with linear phase filters theres not only post ringing but pre ringing,its cancer of sound.It corrupts whole transient not only that its even before the transient hits,it destroy music rhythm and critical timing
 
tubes dont have ringing or phase shift,audio spectrum is coherent synchronized,solid,a natural pleasant,the original timing is left untouched.Tubes have noise whitch is audible only in super quiet parts,its rarely a problem and its just kind of soft noise not like hard clipping.........  tubes cant hardclip they soft clip.Also the tube distortion is harmonic,second order especialy its very pleasant,its soft and euphonic,people love it.
 
 
currently there is no technology that can do what tube does,becose there isnt EQ with zero phase shift AND zero ringing

 
 
Actually most phase shift is inaudible all by itself because the ears are insensitive to is after 1-2 KHz.  Below that there is so much phase shift in our listening rooms and recording studios that they swamp what little phase shift there is in most electronics including elextronics.
 
Every filter that implements a sharp cutoff rings no matter whether minimum phase, linear phase or the third alternative you didn't mention called maximum phase. The difference is where the ringing takes place whether before, after or during the impulse used for testing. Linear phase puts it first, Minimum phase puts it after, and Maximum phase puts it square on top of the impulse, which means both fore and aft.  That is the kind you are obviously thinking of even though you got confused and called it the wrong thing.
 
Linear Phase filters for brick wall filtering of 44/16  are great, because all of the ringing is outside the audible range, at the Nyquist frequency. But they are often not the best choice for other applications in the audio band, even those they have the same phase charcgteristic as a pure delay, which are endemic in the real world.  
 
Tubes don't have riniging but many tubed circuits do, and many of the classic tube designs were just on the edge of ringing like a bell and frying every tweeter they were hooked to. If you like tubes you must like phase shift because the transformers that are almost universally used with them add phase shift, which is why tube designs like Futterman's tried to have no transformers, which brings us around to ss desgns that generallly lack them and the phase shift that comes with them.
 
Tubed circuits clip as sharp as you  like if they have inverse feedback. Tubes made great square wave generators back in the days when tubes were all we had. Of course tubes can hard clip and many classic designs by McIntosh and Dyna for example do exactly that.  You must not have much of a test bench! I do.
 
Oh yes the rumor that tubes only put out second harmonics, which is exactly untrue if you actually measure them (They have an exponential transfer function based on therr principles of operation) Again you must have never ever measured a tubed amp or preamp and actually broke the distortion down by harmonic. Not only that you  must have slept through second year electronics class that covered this in my day.
 
Well lets say that tubes only put out second harmonics. Any nonlinearity that creates second harmonics also creates IM which is aharmonic and sounds like $#!^. 
 
Well as they say the truth can set you free, so I hope you enjoy freedom! :wink:
 
May 31, 2015 at 10:56 PM Post #98 of 107
Agree with all of the above, except I'm pretty sure that linear phase is the one that puts the ringing in the middle of things while maximum phase puts it before. Not that any variation helps you avoid that pretty graph full of wiggles before and/or after the stair step of square waves that must be what gobicii is thinking about when he talks about ringing. That's created by the brickwall filter in DACs responding to an unnatural test signal (square waves) and all the "ringing" is in a narrow band of frequencies around the maximum representable frequency of the format (which is 1/2 the sample rate of the format). For eg 24/96 this is around 48kHz and undisputably inaudible.
 
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Jun 1, 2015 at 5:12 AM Post #99 of 107
Agree with all of the above, except I'm pretty sure that linear phase is the one that puts the ringing in the middle of things while maximum phase puts it before. Not that any variation helps you avoid that pretty graph full of wiggles before and/or after the stair step of square waves that must be what gobicii is thinking about when he talks about ringing. That's created by the brickwall filter in DACs responding to an unnatural test signal (square waves) and all the "ringing" is in a narrow band of frequencies around the maximum representable frequency of the format (which is 1/2 the sample rate of the format). For eg 24/96 this is around 48kHz and undisputably inaudible.

 
 
I consulted some references and Memory failed me at 4 AM!
 
Maximum Phase puts all the ringing up front, while Linear balances it fore and aft.
 
Thanks for the correction!
 
Jun 1, 2015 at 11:25 AM Post #100 of 107
Holy crap, Arny is on Headfi. I hope Bigshot goes to HA after the uh, incident around here.
 
I trust you guys on EQ, the problem is doing an EQ itself. If you guys come together and write an excellent, easy to understand and implement EQ guide, I think much more people would use EQ. I frequent the Linustechtips forum's audio subsection and when I suggest that they try some EQ, they inevitably ask me "what do I get and how do I do it?" and I realized I don't have a very good answer. If I pieced together every tibit of EQ advice in all of HA or Headfi I'm sure I can get something serviceable, but I'm not doing that and neither are the people pondering over tube amps.
 
It would be great to start a new website/resource, that's like the-guy-who-designed-the-Odac's-blog but taken to a new level and still updated.
 
Jun 1, 2015 at 11:32 AM Post #101 of 107
   
 
I consulted some references and Memory failed me at 4 AM!
 
Maximum Phase puts all the ringing up front, while Linear balances it fore and aft.
 
Thanks for the correction!

 
You can play around with a range from minimum to maximum (linear in the middle) using SoX:
sox input.wav output.wav rate -p 0 44100 #minimum
sox input.wav output.wav rate -p 50 44100 #linear
sox input.wav output.wav rate -p 100 44100 #maximum
 
Jun 1, 2015 at 5:51 PM Post #103 of 107

 
The results of Sox conversion from 24/96 to 44/16  with these parameters:
 
sox input.wav output.wav rate  -v -L -p 50 44100
 
 
Looks pretty good to me!
 
This is done with Audition/CEP 2.1 with Q=150 and E2 noise shaping
 

 
Both are linear phase filters, but the filter parameters were tuned to reduce ringing by compromising filter parameters, but not to the point where there were audible artifacts.
 
The key parameter is called Transition Band, and the Sox Transition Band is a few 100 Hz, while the CEP Transition Band is about 2 KHz which resembles a good modern DAC. 
 
Jun 1, 2015 at 10:25 PM Post #104 of 107
Is that Adobe Audition or something else there doing sinc interpolation between sample points on the waveform plot? A refreshing change from the linear interpolation on Audacity... :popcorn:
 
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Jun 2, 2015 at 3:51 AM Post #105 of 107
Is that Adobe Audition or something else there doing sinc interpolation between sample points on the waveform plot? A refreshing change from the linear interpolation on Audacity...
popcorn.gif

 
The actual source is CoolEdit Pro 2.1 which is the predecessor of Audition, but they are functionally very similar.
 
Yes, CEP and Audition do Sinc Interpolation when interpreting the display.
 
The key parameter is called Transition Band, and the Sox Transition Band is a few 100 Hz, while the CEP Transition Band is about 2 KHz which resembles a good modern DAC. 
 

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