Why the majority of your CDs sound horrible.
Jan 11, 2007 at 9:54 PM Post #61 of 217
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vul Kuolun /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I read an article from an soundengineer saying something like this:

"Hopes and Fears" by Keane has a higher RMS than "Raining blood" by Slayer. And Keane should not be louder than Slayer".

But the true scandal is not the compression. Compression is a matter of taste (well, like ******** your pants) after all. But a clipping CD is not a CD anymore. It's simply defective.
What makes it so difficult for these people to understand that it's not possible to have a sound louder than 0db pressed on the stupid CD?




Very true.



Just compared some old vs. new Cannibal Corpse in Audacity, album Kill (new) vs. Tomb Of The Mutilated (old). Now, the music is very intense, so there is no huge gaps, but difference was huge visually. And not just visually, new sounds like utter crap. In old album, instruments sound real, if bit muffled (but thats just different overdrive used). In newer, its totally hot and flat, and bass in even distorts/clips/cracks. Sounds more "brutal" at first listen (quite common nowadays deathmetal actually), but it annoys the hell out of me. Its just louder, not more brutal.
 
Jan 11, 2007 at 10:00 PM Post #62 of 217
The only thing that will change the record companies behaviour is some type of legal action, e.g. a class action lawsuit etc. I think the US has some pretty strong legal rights in certain states concerning the sale of "known" flawed goods. I would believe given the amount of press and the "expert witnesses" available in the engineering/mastering business it would be easy to prove in a court of law that the industry knowingly and willingly sold defective products. Notwithstanding issues with respect to "loss of hearing" lawsuits (e.g. see Apple iPod) which could be caused by the increase in "loudness" and doubling of dB output levels....

Cheers.
 
Jan 11, 2007 at 11:29 PM Post #63 of 217
No hardware or software device can fix or change clipping that is on a recording. If you replaygain in software, or simply use a -3dB amplification filter, or run it through some hardware dynamics expander/compressor, the original signal was still stored on the CD as distorted. So all you'll be doing is reducing (or increasing, if you use an expander) the volume of the distortion and of course then you'll have to turn it up elsewhere to make up for the loss (or gain) in volume. I use replaygain, but only so I don't blow my ears out going from one album to the nex on PC, I don't expect it to, and it will never fix or correct poor recording technique and/or poor mastering. If you perform some actions on a signal you think it digitally 'too hot' and you end up with what you consider a more desirable result, then that's great, but the distortion is still there, just decreased in volume or noticableness (word??) or 'hidden', along (most likely) with other parts of the signal you DO want to hear. I think there is more to lose from trying to correct this issue than there is to gain. It's a simple case of GIGO. Doesn't matter how well you reproduce a digitally hot signal, with great amps and speakers, or what operations/filters you perform on the samples, it will simply sound like high quality 5h1t.

Out of curiosity, I notice the problem on maybe 20% of my music, and a LOT of my music is heavy metal. But it isn't all in the metal I have, it's spread (rather evenly I must say) between all the genres. The very few CDs that tend to be better IMO are the MoFi remasters (although not always). If there isn't a MoFi remaster of an album I want, from now on I will ALWAYS try to get the original, if it was a CD released in the 80s or very early 90's which has since been remastered.

On the remaster note, I recently purchased Megadeth's Countdown to Extinction remaster giving it a chance to be better than my copy. I have the original. I listened to the new version and it sounded like someone hit the 'loud' button. And about 2 minutes into Symphony of Destruction, when he said "rrrr..acting like a robot", in the original there is a definite robotic voice with a phaser effect on it. On the remaster, it is quite literally a bleep/bloop/electronic sounding glitch sound. This is a separate problem from the digital 'hotness' because it sounds so far removed from the original that is possibly a manufacture problem (except ALL copies of the new CD i've heard have it), but I think it just shows that more often than not, the remasters are worse or simply sound a tad different, exposes sounds ppl aren't used to hearing and making them think it is better. Same as when you get new gear significantly different enough in tone from your previous rig and it exposes all kinds of sounds that seem foreign to you (some ppl call this a 'veil' being removed etc), but in reality, unless it really is 'better' gear, half the time while the gear is showing up 'new' sounds, it is also reproducing other parts not quite so well, but then because you've heard that part of the song(s) before, you know they are there and can here them when you listen for them purposefully.

Ooops, OT rant.. sorry! I think it's all inter-related to some degree though.
 
Jan 11, 2007 at 11:53 PM Post #64 of 217
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vul Kuolun /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I read an article from an soundengineer saying something like this:

"Hopes and Fears" by Keane has a higher RMS than "Raining blood" by Slayer. And Keane should not be louder than Slayer".

But the true scandal is not the compression. Compression is a matter of taste (well, like ******** your pants) after all. But a clipping CD is not a CD anymore. It's simply defective.
What makes it so difficult for these people to understand that it's not possible to have a sound louder than 0db pressed on the stupid CD?



and now clipping WAV files that I buy from beatport.com and dancerecords.com. I wanna punch someone, but who? Everyone is doing it!
 
Jan 12, 2007 at 1:44 AM Post #65 of 217
This is mainly why the only CDs I ever buy anymore usually fit into some "classical" sub-genre. I have hundreds of classical CDs, and none, truly none, have had their dynamics destroyed in any way that I can notice.

If there is a song or two I like that is heavily butchered, I will just download the single that I like (for free) and call it a day.

Half the time it isn't even worth subjecting your ears to that trash, let alone pay for it.
 
Jan 12, 2007 at 2:09 AM Post #67 of 217
I've been running my music through Audacity and MP3Gain to check for clipping and so far out of about 40 that I've checked only BoA's Love & Honesty doesn't contain clipping.

Interestingly, I find this album to be sound no worse or no better than the rest. I don't see what you guys are complaining about? Maybe the clipping my albums have just isn't as horrible as yours.

I'll have to check out that Red Hot Chili Peppers album you guys are always bitching about.
tongue.gif
 
Jan 12, 2007 at 2:19 AM Post #68 of 217
when u listen to californication, (and the self titled song) you can ****ing hear it easily, on any speakers/phones, not just high end stuff. its ridicuouls...some of my favorite songs sound like poop.
 
Jan 12, 2007 at 2:26 AM Post #69 of 217
Esidarap,

great. I wish that was the case with some of the CDs I have. Do you have the Goo Goo Dolls - Let Love In.

Shakira and Wyclef Jean - Hips Don't Lie Bamboo. That song is incredible. The whole song is clipped. Her voice, the drums, everything. I have never heard anything like it.

Here is a URL I just found of the same song in MP3 format from the FIFA World Cup which demonstrates clipping... listen to the bass drum and how it just flattens out. Shakira's voice when she sings "my hips don't lie" the first time when the bass comes in.

Cheers.
 
Jan 12, 2007 at 2:34 AM Post #70 of 217
What's the Story Morning Glory by Oasis and Back to Basics by ugly (*cough*) are also splendid examples.

RE: peak level of 78%. The problems can be caused in the recording procoess as well as the mastering process so peak levels and such mean absolutely nothing. You can record static and distortion quietly then master it beautifully at whatever peak level you want
wink.gif


This is the thing that bugs me, short of *cough* obtaining the album to check it before buying, there is absolutely no way to tell which remasters (or originals for that matter) will sound good and which will sound poor.

This is most annoying for ppl who are trying to legimitize their music collection, also thinking that the CDs will sound better than their MP3s and therefore justifying the purchases, only to find that the CD doesn't sound better at all - they were simply recorded/mastered badly, and if anything, the MP3 conversion was actually masking some of the hideous noises on the original!
 
Jan 12, 2007 at 2:39 AM Post #71 of 217
Quote:

Originally Posted by TKO /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Esidarap,

great. I wish that was the case with some of the CDs I have. Do you have the Goo Goo Dolls - Let Love In.

Shakira and Wyclef Jean - Hips Don't Lie Bamboo. That song is incredible. The whole song is clipped. Her voice, the drums, everything. I have never heard anything like it.

Here is a URL I just found of the same song in MP3 format from the FIFA World Cup which demonstrates clipping... listen to the bass drum and how it just flattens out. Shakira's voice when she sings "my hips don't lie" the first time when the bass comes in.

Cheers.



Woah, so that's what bad clipping sounds like? You hear a gross flickering sound when loud sounds start to clip off right? Now I see why you guys are complaining.

I think 1 or 2 of my songs have that for like a second, I'm gonna go back and find them.
 
Jan 12, 2007 at 3:10 AM Post #72 of 217
Too bad people who care about audio quality are in the extreme minority.

Idiotic that the people who started this crap are those who should know better, too. People who master CDs so "hot" and compressed shouldn't have anything to do with audio. Of course, though, it sells, which goes back into my main point. If the vast majority of your source of income only cares about "loudness," then that is what you'll give them.

Not decrying capitalism here, just 99%+ of people's tastes.
 
Jan 12, 2007 at 3:10 AM Post #73 of 217
Ok, I got it.This is the one I think I heard clipping in. Listen @ 54 seconds in this song. Is this bad clipping or something else?
confused.gif


Click Here


EDIT: I typed 56 instead of 54 by mistake...
 
Jan 12, 2007 at 3:27 AM Post #74 of 217
Quote:

Originally Posted by Esidarap /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Ok, I got it.This is the one I think I heard clipping in. Listen @ 54 seconds in this song. Is this bad clipping or something else?
confused.gif


Click Here



That could have been a nice song. It was butchered beyond belief. Those distortions are indeed clipping. Take a peek at the attatched pic and you will see why that is so painful to listen to.

(Keep in mind you should see a smooth, gradually-changing waveform, if it's recorded and mastered properly)

 
Jan 12, 2007 at 3:28 AM Post #75 of 217
I couldn't detect any there, just by listening. If you really want to know what bad, BAD clipping sounds like, listen to this:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/343mjd

The static sound of the clipped peaks is plainly audible right from the get-go.

Badclip.jpg
 

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