[weibby]

Quote:

Gear variance isn't from dacs and amps (aside from noise level, vanishingly low distortion levels, and frequency responses which can be equalized), it's from your endpoint, which at this point will always be the weak link no matter what you pay.

seriously why do you bother?
I don't know if it's like a cool thing to be a troll.
 
Your antithesis in a hobbyist forum is like going into a church and tell the pastor his god is a lie.
seriously you jack off with this kinda crap?

 

[Uncle Erik]

Quote:

Slightly off topic.. but.. What kind of preamp do you use?
 
I finally have a real job and I am contemplating the setup of my first real system.
I want to build a preamp with a bunch of TCJ switches and a TCJ attenuator. http://glass-ware.stores.yahoo.net/atandsise.html
 
However, I am not sure if I want an active(buffer/gain 1) or passive preamp, and I would be very interested to hear your opinion on this.
 
 
Thanks,
nullstring

I use a Conrad-Johnson PV2 and also press the Zana Deux into service as a preamp now and then.  I've tended more towards active preamps for a little extra gain.
 
As soon as I get my workshop together, I'm going to build a new preamp.  I'm planning to set it up to handle six or eight sources (I have that many) and allow output to four or six headphone amps, because I'd like to have several set up for comparison.  The circuit I chose is the Ultrapath at Electra-Print.  Nice, clean design and Jack is one of the best engineers out there.
 
[Apologies for the minor threadjack.]

 

[leeperry]

Soundcards run off a crappy ATX SMPS(7/10mV of ripple when a proper linear regulated PSU can go <0.00x mV), the ground is supposed to be null in audio but in a computer all the components flush to it...so expect havoc ))
 
also it's an EMI/RFI inferno, and compromises need to be made to fit within a single PCI slot(no tall filtering caps possible), you're also dependent on crappy software drivers that never work as expected...once you try a drivers-free USB transport + DAC, you never look back!
 
and EAX, DH are just bs...DH is way too wet to make any sense in games, and you guys keep mentioning the STX for games...check this (unbiased) review out: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/multimedia/display/asus-xonar-essence-stx_6.html#sect0
 
"If Dolby Headphone is not enabled, the Xonar Essence STX gives you no sense of direction towards the sound at all."
 
Q3 was as mono as can be for me on the STX. What matters for a proper game experience is 1) low jitter, to get a clear stereo imaging 2) a clear and uncolored sound.
 
I'd say don't pay attention to reviews, as we all hear differently...and computer hardware websites are not qualified to give proper unbiased reviews of audiophile gear, who do you think sends the free sample cards eh?

 

[Cya|\|]

And why do people by very expensive soundcard to connect to dac? Maybe it's OT, but i saw people spending lots of money for an rme soundcard, just to connect to an external dac. Why don't they just by an adapter like this http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/USBface/Digital1EN.htm or a gaming soundcard for best gaming experience, with digital output to connect  to an external dac?

 

[leeperry]

 

why do people buy very expensive soundcard to connect to dac?

low jitter clocks I'd guess, and unmolested bit-perfect audio...until very recently these were not really available for cheap.

 

[ROBSCIX]

Quote:

And why do people by very expensive soundcard to connect to dac? Maybe it's OT, but i saw people spending lots of money for an rme soundcard, just to connect to an external dac. Why don't they just by an adapter like this http://www.audio-gd.com/Pro/dac/USBface/Digital1EN.htm or a gaming soundcard for best gaming experience, with digital output to connect  to an external dac?

Mainly because they want the features of the card to be available and still have the sound or features of the DAC.  For instance, there are a few aorund here that run a gaming card and connect it to an external DAC via S/Pdif.  This gives them all the gaming features available (EAX/OpenAL, CMSS-3D) on the card and the sound of the DAC and the use of the head amp (if present). 
 
There is no hard and fast rule of one is always better then the other.  There are good and bad examples that are internal or external.
There are many examples of soundcards that measure better then external gear for noise, distortion..etc.
Does that mean they sound better? -No as sound is subjective, however all the crap about the inside of a PC being this or being that is basically put to rest.  Especially when you see a internal soundcard measure better for noise then an external DAC. Where is the noise?
I have both soudncards and DAC's and neither is better then the other rather better for certain tasks or situations.

 

[mythless]

Soundcards have 5.1 or more connection, DACs may not.

 

[Cya|\|]

Quote:

Mainly because they want the features of the card to be available and still have the sound or features of the DAC.  For instance, there are a few aorund here that run a gaming card and connect it to an external DAC via S/Pdif.  This gives them all the gaming features available (EAX/OpenAL, CMSS-3D) on the card and the sound of the DAC and the use of the head amp (if present). 
 
There is no hard and fast rule of one is always better then the other.  There are good and bad examples that are internal or external.
There are many examples of soundcards that measure better then external gear for noise, distortion..etc.
Does that mean they sound better? -No as sound is subjective, however all the crap about the inside of a PC being this or being that is basically put to rest.  Especially when you see a internal soundcard measure better for noise then an external DAC. Where is the noise?
I have both soudncards and DAC's and neither is better then the other rather better for certain tasks or situations.

Yep, i understand all what you said, and right now i have an auzen prelude (wich broke after 2 years...dam auzen). But i don't understand why people would spend 400 euros on an rme just for it's digital output, when top end dacs have jitter correction. I understand why people would spend 200 euros (or less) to have headphone multichannel simulation though, with a soundcard like auzen or ht omega claro.

 

[Professor00179]

@lepeperry - Dolby Headphone sound worse because it is filtered to give you surround sound. Do not expect it to be as perfect as 5.1 speakers or something. Using DH you still only have two drivers of your headphones and the sound is 'muted' in the way so you have a sense of what is happening behind you and in front of you. It just takes time to get used to it. If you do not like it you may not want to use it. Simple as that...
 
"If Dolby Headphone is not enabled, the Xonar Essence STX gives you no sense of direction towards the sound at all."
 
.... Don't know how to make any comment on such an 'inteligent' statement. OF COURSE IF YOU TURNED OF DH YOU DO NOT HAVE SOUND POSITIONING. You will end up with stereo sound... We all know that stereo sound HAS some positioning, but the guy in review classifies stereo sound as the one without no direction OR maybe you/he ment that after turning off DH you have mono sound... Have you heard it? I have and it is not mono - it is very good stereo sound that competes with many stand-alone DACs. This sound card has compareable sound with Styleaudio Carat Topaz. Maybe you will tell me Topaz is a DAC with Mono sound? Also we are talking about music here (and talk a bit about gaming as an additional feature) and the comparison that you have quoted is made in GAMING. It is obvious that if in GAMING you compare the sound with DH to the sound without DH you have "no sense of direction towards the sound at all". What you did forget to mension is that DAC is not better in this as it has ONLY stereo and in gaming you would also end up with "no sense of direction towards the sound at all" and you would have no possibility of turning on DH feature at as well even if you might find it to be very good for you (and majority of people really appreciates it with proper headphones).
 
Also I have saind. There is a review comparing DAC/AMP Styleaudio Topaz with Xonar STX. The differences are very, very small even thought Topaz seems to be far more expensive when I looked at ebay.
 
Also - yes, sound cards have poor PSU. BUT - you say it in the way like this has to mean they are all crap when they are not. Do you think I care about what PSU Xonar uses if it has sound that can compete with stand-alone DACs at the same price? Of course I don't care because the only thing that matters is the sound itself not how 'prestigious' PSU has been used. I agree that cheap PSUs limit sound cards' performance, but it only means that there is a certain barier in the sound that they can not jump over. It does not matter really for the sound cards quality just because they are priced generally same as stand-alone DACs with similar sound quality.
 
Hope you get my point...

 

[leeperry]

 

 
Don't know how to make any comment on such an 'inteligent' statement. OF COURSE IF YOU TURNED OF DH YOU DO NOT HAVE SOUND POSITIONING. You will end up with stereo sound [..]
Do you think I care about what PSU Xonar uses if it has sound that can compete with stand-alone DACs at the same price?

 
I'm glad to see that we are discussing between 'inteligent' ppl.
 
If you read that review again, the guy says that it's a whole different story on the other card he used in his shootout. I currently use a low jitter S/PDIF transport, and games have never sounded this good...check the Hiface thread, you'll read everyone agreeing that games sound awesome on a low jitter transport. Do you realize that the STX is based on a high jitter DSP(the CMI8788 DSP datasheet talks about 500ps jitter) and that its masterclock is 22.576MHz(48kHz*256)? And let's not mention its uber-crapola drivers.
 
Q3 sounds AMAZING on my transport, that's using the industry leading reclocker: http://www.wolfsonmicro.com/products/spdif_transceivers/WM8804/
 
All the games run their own DSP code by now, even Q3 does for that matter...reverb, positioning. You can get perfect 3D positioning on headphones w/o that crappy sounding hollow/veiled Dolby algorithm.
 
That's how I downmix my 5.1 movies to stereo(disable all EQ and DSP):
http://www.mediafire.com/?hzgj3fsco1gqsbf
http://www.mediafire.com/?xrfcj9rm2od453k
 
Is that 3D enough for you? It's the same story in games, and music for that matter. A low jitter transport takes some time to get used to, because the sound is much more natural sounding than a crappy internal soundcard ever will.
 
I haven't heard the "Styleaudio Carat Topaz" you mentioned, but it's running a PCM2707 USB controller and 5532/2134 opamps off a wallwart...I've got no problem believing that it'll sound similar to an STX.
 
Well, PSU's matter...they very much do, I'd suggest listening to a DAC on a proper DPS using a low jitter transport someday...other ppl's opinions and bs measurements are not worth a good listen  using your good ole ears.
 
The higher the PSU ripple, the edgier/harsher the sound will be in the end.

 

[Professor00179]

OK I can see you do a lot of talking about technical specification of different deviced - THAT DOES NOT MATTER FOR ME AND PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT THE SOUND NOT TECHNICAL DATA. I am aware of DACs being better when you do not look at the price - you may have DAC that is much better than sound cards ever will be. The problem is that those DACs cost more than any sound card so it is not fair comparison. Entry and mid level DACs are the only products that sound cards can be compared to and that applies for both price and quality. Please tell me what DACs from the same price range will sound better than Xonar STX? I am using Xonar as reference as it is the most popular entry level audiophile sound card, but there are also other, better and more expensive cards. For now we are only talking about Xonar and DACs that can compete with it. Any suggestions? I know a DAC that will probably sound better than STX, but so far I have not seen any direct comparison. I have however seen comparison of STX and Topaz, which I am talking about since both units should cost about the same money and price/value ratio is practicly the same. I would even say that STX is better as it is cheaper (Topaz should cost the same money but does not; I think many people want it so the price raised) and offers almost same good and you get DH, EAX and works with speakers where as I am not sure if Topaz is suited for speakers.

 

[leeperry]

you know, in the audiophile world the last percents cost a lot more than the firsts. you can build your own TREAD PSU that will achieve 0.00x mV ripple. Plug it into some PCM1793 S/PDIF DAC, use some high end IC opamps, a proper low jitter transport and that'll kill any internal soundcard by a long shot..you will be astonished by the SQ improvement.
 
This said, an STX comes for $100/120 second hand I guess, so it's indeed hard to beat...but its high jitter DSP and high jitter 22.576MHz clock will sound like crapola on 44.1: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/multimedia/display/asus-xonar-essence-stx_8.html
 
"why is the odd problem with the noise level at 44.1 kHz not solved since the Xonar D2?"
 
Ppl keep showing 48/96kHz RMAA measurements for a VERY reason. Also, that SNR fight has been started by Creative to impress newbies, but >100dB SNR is plain commercial fluff to impress ppl who don't know better: http://ixbtlabs.com/articles3/multimedia/asus-d2.html
 

ASUS apparently fights Creative with the same marketing weapon - high SNR. Measured in the standard de factor, Audio Precision, the ASUS D2 demonstrates 118 dBA, while the Creative Elite Pro offers 116 dBA. In fact, SNR values above -100 dBA do not make practical sense. Such values are lower than quantization noise power of a 16 bit signal with TPDF (Triangular Probability Density Function). As no one has complained about noises in AudioCDs yet, high SNR for audio playback is overkill.

 
RMAA measurements don't tell anything about the opamps color, jitter, PSU quality...you can't measure "SQ" per se, and to answer the OP that's the very reason why internal soundcards are no realistic alternative to the old school gear(DAC/transports on proper PSU's).
 
Putting a $2 IC on your card and calling it "teh best headamp in the world" is kinda misleading too...especially off a crappy SMPS: http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/tpa6120a2.html

 

[Professor00179]

Once again - I am not profesionalist. Imagine I am a random guy, who looks for a better quality sound. I have absolutely NO IDEA what you are talking about. All I want is to get staff that has the best sound quality for the money... Xonar STX presents excelent valuea even as a brand new unit and there is no argument that its price/valuea ratio is very good. I do not care about the jitter as I do not even know what it is. I am not going to show off to my friends by a hardware with low jitter - I am interested in possibly the best 'bung for a buck' so I could get started with hi-fi. Tell me, what will sound better for the same money? I have no idea how it looks in USA, but e.g. in Europe where uDAC costs 120 british pounds + shipping and Xonar STX just about the same,, Xonar becomes VERY good unit. Stop talking about the technical data. That is not what people listen to. Give me few products that will sound better for about the same money, will have AMP, headphone out (since many cheap DACs does not have one) and many so many features. Come on. It seems so easy when reading your post...
 
I repeat: Jitter is very important and it affects sound quality but it is not jitter that I am listening to. I do not care about high/low jitter as long as the product souns good within its price range and Xonar STX/ST certainly does.

 

[nullstring]

Quote:

OK I can see you do a lot of talking about technical specification of different deviced - THAT DOES NOT MATTER FOR ME AND PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT THE SOUND NOT TECHNICAL DATA. I am aware of DACs being better when you do not look at the price - you may have DAC that is much better than sound cards ever will be. The problem is that those DACs cost more than any sound card so it is not fair comparison. Entry and mid level DACs are the only products that sound cards can be compared to and that applies for both price and quality. Please tell me what DACs from the same price range will sound better than Xonar STX? I am using Xonar as reference as it is the most popular entry level audiophile sound card, but there are also other, better and more expensive cards. For now we are only talking about Xonar and DACs that can compete with it. Any suggestions? I know a DAC that will probably sound better than STX, but so far I have not seen any direct comparison. I have however seen comparison of STX and Topaz, which I am talking about since both units should cost about the same money and price/value ratio is practicly the same. I would even say that STX is better as it is cheaper (Topaz should cost the same money but does not; I think many people want it so the price raised) and offers almost same good and you get DH, EAX and works with speakers where as I am not sure if Topaz is suited for speakers.

 
Perhaps you should think about buying a gigawork DAC and a pair of output transformers.
I'll admit that most Commericial DACs are expensive, but you can get good DACs at lower prices that will out preform the Xonar STX.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/137976-experience-diy-dac.html
 

 

[leeperry]

 

Imagine I am a random guy

 
hehe the uDAC is just a portable realtek, it's based on a $0.98 DAC chip w/o any opamp.
 
if you're a random guy(the one who plays his 192 kbits MP3 in DirectSound), then you're actually very lucky...because anything will sound mind blowing to your ears. Ignorance is bliss, it really is.
 
Oh, and yes, you are listening to jitter, you very much are...especially while playing 44.1kHz material on the STX. Try to get a hold of an ST, and hear for yourself what you've been missing all along and how colored and mushy the STX actually is.
 
There's always something better in this world, and usually an old top range electronics device is far better than a brand new low grade unit...the funny thing is that they often sell for the exact same price if you're willing to buy used.
 
The realtek ALC888 has a built-in 32Ω headphones driver, this will be on par w/ the uDAC...except for its crappy analog pot w/ major stereo imbalance.
 
You keep asking what external DAC can kill the STX for the same amount? I don't really know, I'm no salesman. I've been through my own upgraditis fate, and it's paid off big time. Choose your own path.
 
I've bought a used Firestone DAC(and its Supplier PSU) for 150€ shipped, cheaper than a brand new STX. RMAA measurements aren't too shabby either: http://www.firestone-audio.com/rmaa/SPITFIRE.htm
 
Oh and yes it kills the STX like you wouldn't believe...even from a crappy transport. A good transport makes it eye popping. It can also drive headphones if you put a beefy opamp(I use LT1363,  that can output 60mA).