[khatch]

I completely agree with several of the previous comments.  Headroom amp sales probably suffer from being the first amp that many of us ever owned.  It's ironic that the company which produced the "gateway" product that got many of us into the hobby, now (perceptually at least) suffers from being seen as outdated or off the leading edge.  And certainly, their industrial design aesthetic (something which I love) is seen by the masses (shallow yes - shame on you all) as being unattractive.
 
I'm a perfect example myself.  My first amp was the Headroom Balanced Desktop (Home module) with DPS.....lol.  When you start so close to the top it's very difficult to "upgrade".  I should know - I've found nothing since that I can say is clearly "better".
 
Headroom is a great company with great customer service - both pre and post schism.

 

[Spareribs]

Interestingly, the concept of outdated or old style amps like the "old" headroom amps is actually silly in some ways.
 
"old" amps are actually valuable and more trusted. If I had a choice to buy an old reputable amp compared to a new amp that has no history, I would probably get the old amp.
 
Maybe in the headphone world, the culture of old is 2nd class but not in the guitar world.
 
In the guitar world, old amps are first prize and gold! If you look at a lot of the world class guitar players, they are using old Fender amps from the 60s that are refurbished. I know that guitar amps and hi fi stereo amps are totally different but still, a good quality older style amp even in the stereophile world still is of high quality. The laws of physics are still the same and we are still using electricity. Amp technology remains stable in many ways. A good old headphone amp is still good despite the new marketing of new flavors and it would not surprise me if it sounds better than the flavor of the month amp.

 

[IEMCrazy]

Funny to see this thread here...I commented on the topic in an unrelated thread a few weeks ago.  I bought my Headroom Micro Amp (Desktop) back in 2006 or so when they were all the rage.  The "gateway" effect as others have said.
 
I used it for many years.  It was OK, but I honestly couldn't tell substantial differences with my HD650s between it and my AVR's headphone output (which, admittedly, I think the higher end Denon AVRs have better headphone amps onboard than some other brands/models....)
 
Looking back, I suspect the small size and 1/8" jacks held it back in terms of output impedance.  I also suspect that ugly, noisy power brick keeps it back.  I suspect it wasn't a good match for the 650s.  But what I discovered after hooking up my 650's to a little Fiio E11 was that I actually liked the sound BETTER than the Micro.  It was more open, less veiled, and had a wider soundstage.  The "Right Between Your Ears" slogan at HeadRoom seems like more than a slogan....all the sound was a center blob in my head all those years.  Even with crossfade (crossfade is fun, but not my cup of tea...)
 
I payed $350 for that amp years ago.  I recently bought a Schiit Lyr and from the very first NOTE played through it, it was a whole different experience.  My HD650's were much more opened up, wider, clearer sound, etc.  For only $100 more and without the need for a dedicated power unit that costs as much as the amp module.
 
So what did I learn about Headroom?  They have very well built solidly made hardware that's a pleasure to use, physically.   The Micro Amp is probably a poor choice for matching with HD650s...presumably an output impedance issue.  The sound staging, at least through 650's is lousy in the Micro (the old model anyway.)  Now that I have Lyr I don't think I would ever.....ever....plug my 650's into my Micro again.  Ever.  I may use it with my MDR-7506 or other easier to drive phones though.  I also learned I dislike the sound signature of it, but that's merely preference. 
 
Overall I think Headroom's "problem" isn't so much their products but their pricing at this point in time.  For the low-mid price point, which is where most people first try them such as the Micro line, you don't get a lot of bang for your money...some of the Chinese import companies have taken over that market such as Fiio and Hifiman, and Schiit with them (FOTM or otherwise) for the "in the know" crowd, and NuForce for the not-so-in-the-know crowd.   For those willing to pay a bit more, I'm not sure they're offering anything unique anymore since their higher end units are substantially more expensive and start competing with things like Woo, and Grace...and IMO, for the money, I'd prefer the Woo or Grace... The fact that they actually sell their own competitors products is a little odd feeling.  I also think, though this has always been their setup, that they lost their way by trying to be the best all-in-one audio retailer rather than just trying to be the best amp/dac manufacturer. 
 
Generally they offer good quality products, but the price points for which they're available, they're wedged between similar performance at lower prices in less robust builds on one side, and better performance in prettier cabinets at the same price on the other side. I imagine they're doing well in the audio etail business, but for their amp business, if it ever starts flagging, I think they'll end up having to make the decision to go either downscale and compete on price or upscale and compete on performance/aesthetics. The no-mans land they're stuck in has got to be painful.  Either that or use the fact that their hardware looks more like generic live-music monitoring equipment than "audiophile elite" gear as a marketing gimmick...
 
 
Quote:

I completely agree with several of the previous comments.  Headroom amp sales probably suffer from being the first amp that many of us ever owned.  It's ironic that the company which produced the "gateway" product that got many of us into the hobby, now (perceptually at least) suffers from being seen as outdated or off the leading edge.

 
khatch: I'd ammed an additional argument to your statement:  I think in some cases, such as my own, their sales suffer from the fact that many of us started with their low-mid end as a "gateway" and given today's options compared to yesterdays, feel like we didn't quite get our money's worth from it at are hesitant to try their high end options.  Especially with some of the newer options showing up at around the price point we paid for what was their low-mid end years ago that scarcely seems updated since then at the price.
 
For those that started with their high end balanced gear such as yourself though....that argument is probably much less valid

.  I've long had the impression that their large desktop machines are of a very different class than their "Micro" line.  Which goes back to price point.  I'm not sure "Micro" really has a place in today's market at that price range....  It's neither suitable as a high end desktop amp, nor as a truly portable amp.   Fiio, Cypher, Fostex, Peachtree etc have really crushed that market on either side of its price point. 
 
Though, selfishly, I'm glad they still sell Micro so it doesn't make mine feel quite so obsolete!

 

[Radio_head]

Schiit gear specifically has been a coup in headphone audio gear in the price/performance category.  Headroom amps are competitive in most of their chosen price points with almost every manufacturer except Schiit.  (And for those who don't want to deal with tubes the Lyr/Valhalla just aren't options.)

 

[IEMCrazy]

 
Quote:

Schiit gear specifically has been a coup in headphone audio gear in the price/performance category.  Headroom amps are competitive in most of their chosen price points with almost every manufacturer except Schiit.  (And for those who don't want to deal with tubes the Lyr/Valhalla just aren't options.)

 
True, though I'd argue Hifiman etc were a similar coup prior to that.  As for Headroom being competitive, I'm not sure I'd agree with you across all their products.   Their balanced products I'd agree.  In fact I'd say that their balanced products may actually be a good value.  But $350 for the Micro? $850 for the Desktop? 
 
Granted, I just realized the current generation of the Desktop is a DAC combo...that isn't as bad as I thought in that case.  Assuming it's a good DAC (I haven't heard it and haven't heard much about it.)  Still, there's a lot of products these days competing for your $~900 in that market that just weren't there 5 years ago, including products relating to "the iPod Revolution" (Fostex HP-P1 etc) which in that price range still makes it less valuable than it once was.  Still, to justify a price multiple of over 3X, I'd hope it demonstrates severe improvement over a Fiio E9 + E7 for $250 (or E17 for whatever that bundle will go for soon.)  Obviously a US product and Chinese product aren't quite cost-competitive, but a lot of people won't be willing to pay in multiples of 3 for country of origin differences which would also reflect in less discussion here.  I wonder how many people starting threads on E9 and similar products would have been posting about Micro if the Chinese products did not exist?
 
Maybe a huge chunk of image problem for them revolves around the old iterations of the Micro which so many of us started with.  Looking at their website now, things arent as bad as I'd remembered.  Perhaps the new management is getting some things right....but hasn't sufficiently got word out to let everyone know it's not as dire as it used to be.   I see they now have a Micro, micro portable (rechargeable, no 9V anymore), they sell it with built-in DAC upgrade for $100 (though it makes one question how it fares next to Micro DAC) etc.  Its a better value.  Maybe they sound better than the old ones too.   But form factor still makes them more niche.  It's too big (and not iGadget friendly enough) to be a "portable solution") and too small to feel quite at home on the desktop, especially with the 1/8" jack. 
 
I know I tend to judge them based on past experience with their older "portable" products.  Maybe they're entirely different now, but I can't quite get the "poor value, odd product positioning" image out of my head when I think of them. Their past ubiquity here maybe harming them now if that's how others think of them as well.   I've always had the impression their high-end stuff was a different grade, but never looked seriously since I wasn't planning on blowing $1500 for a headphone amp from any brand. 
 
And, personally, it still kind of creeps me out that they're an all-in-one-audio-store too.   When I look at a product, I'm used to seeing the manufacturer being dedicated specifically to their products.  It's just difficult for me to wrap my head around taking them as seriously as other makes when they seem to sell more products that they don't make than ones they do make.  It's not a failing of them....but I think it's a brand identity problem. headphone.com looks like an etailer, not a manufacturer.  Choosing two different brands, one for their store, one for their products may have been a good idea.
 
(the point by the way isn't a list of issues I have with Headroom, but ideas I have on why I tend to not focus on them much these days, and why I imagine a lot of people probably don't.  Complaints aside, I don't plan on selling my old Micro....

)  Though if the sonics haven't changed since the old ones, I can't imagine why they're still displaying it with the HD650's in their product pictures.....it's just a horrible, horrible synergy between the two. )

 

[ACDOAN]

I am no way to question the quality of Headroom amps but people perception change in time and technology is improving in term of cost to performance ratio .
 
Not too many people are willing to drive around in a station wagon with wood trim nowadays but they were popular back in the 70s. DLP,Plasma and LCD TVs sales are declining due to the birth of the thin LED TVs that can be wall-mounted and look as beautiful as a part of home decor.
 
Yes, people do want SQ and modern, hi-tech looking gear as their proud possesion in their house the same time. Nice design with hi-tech looking will sell. Reality bites but it's reality.
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

[MikeW]

LED tv's are LCD Tv's, the only difference is the backlight. Plasma's are moving along quite nicely, they are as thin/thinner then the best LCD's(less then 1" now!). They have made huge strides in power management, and still offer great black performance for the $$$. DLP's are, however going away, with only Mitsubishi still manufacturing them, though still a great value when you can get 73" for ~1200$. 
Quote:

I am no way to question the quality of Headroom amps but people perception change in time and technology is improving in term of cost to performance ratio .
 
Not too many people are willing to drive around in a station wagon with wood trim nowadays but they were popular back in the 70s. DLP,Plasma and LCD TVs sales are declining due to the birth of the thin LED TVs that can be wall-mounted and look as beautiful as a part of home decor.
 
Yes, people do want SQ and modern, hi-tech looking gear as their proud possesion in their house the same time. Nice design with hi-tech looking will sell. Reality bites but it's reality.
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

 

[ACDOAN]

These are considered old technology as LG comes out with OLED TVs. Much thinner and  higher contrast ratio. Yes, I am talking about different technology that has changed our lifestyle. Who would want an ugly dinosaur sitting in the living room ?

 

[Nick01]

The Total Bithead is so ugly

 

[MikeW]

Lol really? 1" thick is an old dinosaur? yeah you better watch out, with that giant thing hanging off the wall you might stub your toe. Yeah OLED's will be nice. That is a new tech, but you did not mention it in your first post at all. It's not a completely new technology either ~ more of an evolution of LED. There are many mobile devices currently on the market that use OLED's.. Though unless you want to spend 5k+ on a TV, i don't think you'll be touching a OLED for a few years.
 
Quote:

These are considered old technology as LG comes out with OLED TVs. Much thinner and  higher contrast ratio. Yes, I am talking about different technology that has changed our lifestyle. Who would want an ugly dinosaur sitting in the living room ?

 

 

[ACDOAN]

Quote:

Lol really? 1" thick is an old dinosaur? yeah you better watch out, with that giant thing hanging off the wall you might stub your toe. Yeah OLED's will be nice. That is a new tech, but you did not mention it in your first post at all. It's not a completely new technology either ~ more of an evolution of LED. There are many mobile devices currently on the market that use OLED's.. Though unless you want to spend 5k+ on a TV, i don't think you'll be touching a OLED for a few years.
 


 

 
"Dinosaur"!!!! I referred to the DPL not the Plasma or LCD or the LED ( yeah, we all know the display is LCD based but the back lit ( Full array) or edged lit is not the CFL bulb, rather the emitting diode semi conductor light source ) .  My job is not buying but rather selling TVs but what i try to make a point here is not about TVs, Automobiles....The end users are more sophisticated now than ever. They not only demand SQ in term of  cost/ performance ratio. They want aesthetic, they want classy looking.
 
 
 
I am sorry if I offended you if you are working for Headroom.com but it is what it is.

 

[MikeW]

lol i don't work for headroom. I do agree that their amps are rather Utilitarian looking,function over form. Im not 100% convinced that's the reason they are not getting love though. That said, I could give a flip myself, im using an O2 it sounds fantastic, I built it myself, and it only cost me 85 bucks. 

 

[ACDOAN]

Quote:

lol i don't work for headroom. I do agree that their amps are rather Utilitarian looking,function over form. Im not 100% convinced that's the reason they are not getting love though. That said, I could give a flip myself, im using an O2 it sounds fantastic, I built it myself, and it only cost me 85 bucks. 

The O2 or the M-stage will be my next amp. I am moving up the food chain slowly before getting to climax. Thank you for all of you guys in this forum since about a year ago, I was completely  ignorant about headphones stuff.
 
Happy listening.
 
 

 

[IEMCrazy]

The trouble with the "end" of DLP is that with the other TV techs, sizes are going down and prices are going up at that "almost huge but not quite huge" threshold DLP used to represent.
 
OLED will look quite nice...but the cost and long-term reliability are still large question marks.  It took forever just to get it stable enough for the mobile space....but with mobile screens theres the expectation you throw it away every 2-3 years so it only needs to last so long.  A TV is another thing all together.... With the way OLED kept slipping behind schedule and every prediction for it's eventual takeover slipping behind for a decade until Samsung finally made it viable on phones in the past year or two, I still think it'll be a good long time until we see it in "common" use in large screens.  Long enough that the next better thing may arrive for less money by the time it does...
 
Though DLP hasn't "gone" anywhere...just RP.  It's still a tour de force in the front projector market (and FP has grown substantially, and prices have come down substantially since the days when DLP RP was king....which may not be coincidence.)
 
As for the appearance of Headroom products, I blame marketing, not appearance.  I think the appearance of it is still pretty cool actually, like I said, it has a very "recording/pro-audio" look to it. I wouldn't look twice if a sound engineer started setting one up on stage.  It's not sleek & shiny like some competition, but with reasonable marketing the geeky head-fi crowd would eat up the pro-audio look in a heartbeat.
 
But right now they still look like an electronics store that sells industrial looking amps that one can't find much information on elsewhere.  The store, the testimonial-driven appearance, MSRP for everything, the "our top 10" lists that seem to change every time they renegotiate supplier contracts....they all give the appearance of an infomercial.  You actually have to search their site to find their own products....the front page is littered with 3 panels showing their amps (which link to pages that have mostly other brand amps first) and the rest of the page is headphones and cables. 
 
I still say its hard to take them seriously what that setup.  It cheapens the reality of what they really make (and I'd guess, since they push it so much they actually make more money as a reseller than selling their own hardware these days.)  If they treat their own products as an also-ran on their own website, what are buyers supposed to think?
 
The irony is that the new management made some great changes in terms of products a and value (combining a DAC in the desktop amp is great considering the price, assuming the DAC competes with their Micro Dac) but they've cheapened the site to the point that you don't notice they've made improvements to the products.  You have to go searching to find out. 
 
I'm not a fan of marketeering at any level...but in some cases....I think a good marketeer isn't such a bad thing...

 

[MikeW]

well, with a domain name like headphone.com I think it's expected that they sell headphones. I would not be surprised at all if 90% of their business was selling other people's wares. I don't think there's anything wrong with it myself. They are in business to make money afterall, and I bet they make more then many specialized amp builders. You think Ray Samual audio or audio gd make as much bottom line as they do? 
 
Supposedly LG's got an OLED due out in june, we'll see. I like plasma's myself, Waiting on panasonic to do something with that fancy Kuro tech they bought. Plasma's tend to have a great lifespan too(10+ yrs).. no backlight to fail for starters.