Why lossless on portables?
Mar 14, 2008 at 3:48 PM Post #91 of 262
Quote:

Originally Posted by mrdeadfolx /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I just use lossless for all my favourite albums, and 256 and 320 for the rest. I can't usually hear the difference between 320 and lossless, but with my favourite music I don't even wanna chance it that I might miss some detail in there. With a 160 gig player you can afford to mess around with the drive space anyways, so why not.


LOL me too, although I tend to use lossless on all instrumental and wma (vbr highest bitrate) with everything else. As I've got tons of space on the Zune 80 I figured why not? I've yet to see what it does to battery life since I can't listen at the moment due to an ear infection - but unless it drops to less than 10 hours I'll be happy.
 
Mar 14, 2008 at 3:57 PM Post #92 of 262
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif
For me, I fail to see the reason for bothering to debate with myself whether or not I can hear it. Stuff is MISSING in the music when lossy coding is used, period. That is fact. And I find that fact psychologically disturbing. So I use lossless, and I am happy. It's FREE to use lossless, and it makes me feel good. So sue me
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Yay!!! How very refreshing.
That is indeed a very compelling reason to use lossless.

I, on the other hand, have discovered that the MISSING stuff makes no difference to me, so I use lossy and I am happy too.

Nobody needs to accuse anyone of being OCD or having bad ears and EVERYBODY'S happy!

Different strokes and all that.
What a wonderful world.
 
Mar 14, 2008 at 11:32 PM Post #93 of 262
I brought this up once in a similar thread...but the original recording quality differences between one album and another are considerably greater than the differences between lossy and lossless. That always helps me keep this issue in perspective.

With that said, I normally can't hear the difference on headphones (using reasonably high end stuff) between Lame V2 and lossless. However, on a speaker rig I can sometimes notice it. The lossy files seem slightly less....dynamic.
 
Mar 14, 2008 at 11:45 PM Post #94 of 262
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif
For me, I fail to see the reason for bothering to debate with myself whether or not I can hear it. Stuff is MISSING in the music when lossy coding is used, period. That is fact. And I find that fact psychologically disturbing. So I use lossless, and I am happy. It's FREE to use lossless, and it makes me feel good. So sue me
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Good post.
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Mar 15, 2008 at 5:57 AM Post #95 of 262
I'm pretty sure when you try to EQ lossy codecs you quickly lose audible information. What I've done, is use the same of everything (source, encode software, IEM's, song, sound settings etc.) when comparing lesser codecs (128/320) with 1411.2 kbps and have found that higher frequences (in particular) start to radically cut out/distort when each frequency is individually increased in volume. The lower the bit rate, the sooner artifacts are heard when scaling the EQ. In addition to that, you can hear a thinner stream of notes when played back, as if it's literally missing a frequency. IE: When the artist strings their guitar, you perceivably hear a tad bit less separation when individually plucked, mostly noted around the 4-8-16 khz range. When using a pair of only $30-40 IEM's, it's hard to be absolutely certain w/out the EQ, though when you apply this function it becomes quite obvious in performance between the 3 bit rates.

I can't really tell a difference w/ alternative or rock like music where there's less focus on any given instrument, though when I listen to a female artist or someone like Dave Matthews, (where's there's more emphasis on higher frequencies) the difference isn't exactly obvious, but indeed noticeable to some extent.
 
Mar 15, 2008 at 8:04 AM Post #96 of 262
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif
For me, I fail to see the reason for bothering to debate with myself whether or not I can hear it. Stuff is MISSING in the music when lossy coding is used, period. That is fact. And I find that fact psychologically disturbing. So I use lossless, and I am happy. It's FREE to use lossless, and it makes me feel good. So sue me
biggrin.gif



Exactly!
 
Mar 15, 2008 at 2:32 PM Post #97 of 262
Quote:

Originally Posted by Skylab /img/forum/go_quote.gif
For me, I fail to see the reason for bothering to debate with myself whether or not I can hear it. Stuff is MISSING in the music when lossy coding is used, period. That is fact. And I find that fact psychologically disturbing. So I use lossless, and I am happy. It's FREE to use lossless, and it makes me feel good. So sue me
biggrin.gif




Can't disagree with that. But even if you use lossless, things aren't 100% guaranteed. I've seen people swear that they think that FLAC sounds different than .wav.

Theoretically that shouldn't be possible....but we live in a world of applied technology, not just theory. All of these formats are just software algorithms that need to be decoded by compatible hardware. Who's to say that all formats or devices are implemented perfectly?
 
Mar 15, 2008 at 3:23 PM Post #98 of 262
Quote:

Originally Posted by ILikeMusic /img/forum/go_quote.gif
And what would your (or others') recommendation be for someone who owned a 16gb flash-based player (vs. a 160gb unit)?


I would go with AAC 192vbr if I was limited to 16gb and wanted to get as much music as possible on there.
 
Mar 15, 2008 at 5:55 PM Post #99 of 262
I used to use AAC 256 CBR and switched to 192 VBR. No audible difference.

See ya
Steve
 
Mar 15, 2008 at 8:02 PM Post #100 of 262
What the others said, and personally I really can't be bothered making a different library for portable for the iPod, since I loathe iTunes.

HDD space is plenty, and battery life is still around 20 hours playing lossless with upgraded battery, so it doesn't really bother me.
 
Mar 16, 2008 at 5:44 PM Post #101 of 262
If you are like tk3, say if you have the HDD space and the shortened battery life isn't an issue, I'm all for lossless. I even have some FLAC files on my player.

However, I would also argue that Mp3s with a high-enough bitrate are as good as you are going to need on a portable player. The better the bitrate, the more accurate the algorithm can be when encoding each sample. The algorithms which generate mp3s do remove stuff from the music, but they are designed to remove the stuff you won't hear anyways. Granted they are not perfect, but they cut back on stuff like:

really high and really low frequencies that are out of most people's audible range. And if they aren't out of your range, they are so damn close that you wouldn't miss them. raise your hand if you can still hear 20k... put your hand down, you aren't fooling anyone. You wont even hear 2k on lossless when a police car drives by with its sirens on.

masked frequencies. tones you cannot hear anyways are cut out. If you wouldn't have heard it, why not cut it? (a masked frequency is a quieter tone at a close frequency to and at the same time as a louder tone. our brain does not process these).

bass stereo channeling. our brain has a really tough time localizing low frequencies. since we cannot tell where the bass is coming from (and most of the time it's just front and center), the information which encodes the stereo panning for bass is cut.

sounds below the threshold of hearing are not just cut, they are removed entirely. again, if you weren't gonna hear them before, who cares?

Also, and this is less relevant, but just an fyi, since most people don't know, but the first step in the mp3 conversion process is the entire lossless encoding process. So it undergoes huffman coding and entropy coding first, along with a few other procedures. So you see, a lot of the file reduction doesn't remove any of the music at all!

Furthermore, bit resevoirs allow the algorithm to only use the number of bits it needs to encode each sample (this applies even to constant bit rate mp3s, vbr is even more efficient at this). So the simpler a sample is, the less memory it will use up, and those unused bits are still available for when the music gets complicated again (this saves you space twice). In case you were wondering, it uses just enough bits per sample so that the quantization noise will be inaudible or maskable (The generated noise can then be "shaped" so that it is hidden underneath the music and inperceivable. remember what i said about masked frequencies? They can be used to our advantage too!). This greatly reduces file size without sacrificing anything from the sound, but isn't done on lossless because it technically is loss.

Another thing that people don't realize is that not all algorithms are created equally. There are different ones that can produce the same song at the same bitrate with differing sonic qualities. Sure, all of them try to do the same thing, but since they use different methods, the outcome is different. This is usually very slight however. The LAME encoder is supposed to be the "best" in terms of quality in that it does the best job of keeping dynamic range up and preserving audible spectra.

I know all this crap isn't going to change anyone's mind, but I hope it helps those on the fence. In the end, you do sacrifice some of the information that was intended for you to hear, but most of it you wouldn't have heard. so for those saying "Oh my god you spent so much on your portable rig and you are gonna use lossy?!" I feel fine saying, "yes" cause I can listen to more tunes than you since my battery will last longer, and when I listen to portable, the noise from the environment trumps the noise and loss from the mp3 algorithm by several orders of magnitude even with my closed-air ATH-ESW9. At home when it's quiet, I want CD quality or better, out and about, what's the point? (I should mention that I live in Manhattan, where it is never quiet. This argument wouldn't apply to those who are lucky enough to be able to listen to their portable audio in peace).
 
Mar 16, 2008 at 6:20 PM Post #103 of 262
thanks daphox
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Mar 16, 2008 at 7:49 PM Post #104 of 262
Quote:

This argument wouldn't apply to those who are lucky enough to be able to listen to their portable audio in peace


Actually I think it would, as most people probably couldn't ABX high-bitrate compressed vs. the source CD even in a perfectly quiet environment.
 
Mar 16, 2008 at 8:02 PM Post #105 of 262
Quote:

Originally Posted by ILikeMusic /img/forum/go_quote.gif
Actually I think it would, as most people probably couldn't ABX high-bitrate compressed vs. the source CD even in a perfectly quiet environment.


Agreed.
 

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