[castleofargh]

Well Greg, I'd put it this way: I'm wise enough on the topic to know nobody really knows. We're all amateurs. That doesn't mean we can't have great science discussions, but it does mean, if we're honest with ourselves and our egos, we'll never come to any solid conclusions because there aren't any possible from us.

For example, our USB cables use electricity, one of the 3 forces within the framework we call The Standard Model which theoretical scientists would tell us is derivative of quantum field theory. The thing is, we know The Standard Model is wrong, just not how or where. That means our understanding of electricity is wrong somehow, which means our ability to predict its behavior is wrong in some way - we're just not sure how, when, or where. We can make good enough guesses to get the macros right, and usually keep from killing ourselves with it, but weird shiit is always happening. Have you ever tried to design an electronics product? If so, then you certainly know there's always some fresh new weird shiit!

Anyway, all of that means it's not possible for us to provide definitive non-religious answers about electrical behavior, just good guesses and what's worked for us so far.

sorry but that's nonsense. just throwing quantum theory into our everyday use of electricity and wires is like saying we don't know how to grow vegetables because we haven't gotten a full grasp of the quantum state of the atoms in the vegetable. you can say it if you like, but really you just sound weird.
here I believe you have to be careful about the difference between what you understand and what is universal knowledge available to mankind. I imagine that all electrical engineers have been tortured a few times with the game of simulating a wire as successive RLC components. hopefully nowadays teachers aren't dicks and they let students use some matlab program to do it all fast and clean.

of course you can always complain that it's only an approximation and that the result is only following the actual wire down to a µV or something and that's it's "dramatically" out of phase at whatever frequency. then you can declare that we don't know how things below µV impact our DAC, and once launched in that direction there really is nothing to stop you(aside from common sense). if you chose to go down the rabbit hole, it's all mystery and paranoia. maybe if I moved my cable one centimeter on the left, the resulting electrical properties would improve the sound? and what's fun is that it's actually possible, so long as you're ready to count any possible change of any magnitude as a relevant one. and when you got your wire and flexed it to straighten it up, that did change the electrical characteristics of the cable. hermagerd you just ruined your cable!!!! or maybe you could blame the guy who first deciding to roll it around something. if your limit is no limit, then everything is a drama.
at the end of the day, you have to make a choice. live the life of an unstable paranoid person, or define your actual needs and simply ensure that your cable will keep the signal within those defined parameters. I've said it many times, but if your concern happens to be fidelity, then you should probably invest some time and a little money in measuring the output signal instead of worrying about highly technical stuff while at the same time testing cables with medieval techniques.
if your concern is audibility, you should bother setting up actual listening tests instead of listening with your eyes.
if your concern is what your guts tell you when you try a given cable. then you already know all you need to know. the one making you happy is the right one. sound may or may not have anything to do with it, but who cares if the one true target is being happy. I fully support this approach as being a valid one in audio. it just disqualifies people from claiming anything about the objective nature of the cable and the signal coming out of it. because subjective stuff aren't objective. the end. ^_^

 

[Triode User]

If what was said was true that would be a complete defense. And if there was no merit to what you were saying you could face sanctions for a frivolous lawsuit against an innocuous internet poster. And if you were inducing people to spend money based on a deliberate misrepresentation of the facts that could form the basis of a countersuit for consumer fraud, or catch the attention of state of Federal attorney general. Are you ready to play hardball then?

Why are you addressing this to me? What do you mean, "Are you ready to play hardball then?" I only corrected the common libel/slander incorrect use of the words.

 

[Whazzzup]

Actually do dac makers, cable and USB makers, amplifier etc.. make any claims that they produce better sound than anyone else? I’d say let’s get the courts to sort out the audio industry. Let the gavels fly, but I think they covered themselves by only offering third party testimony and other non predictive measures to keep the smoke screen up.

 

[Steve999]

Why are you addressing this to me? What do you mean, "Are you ready to play hardball then?" I only corrected the common libel/slander incorrect use of the words.

Just throwing out some hypotheticals to extrapolate from your assertion and educate everyone a little bit. I won’t have a member of the trade making an off-hand comment to try to put a damper on the truth in this sub-forum. Next time think before you write.

 

[Steve999]

Actually do dac makers, cable and USB makers, amplifier etc.. make any claims that they produce better sound than anyone else? I’d say let’s get the courts to sort out the audio industry. Let the gavels fly, but I think they covered themselves by only offering third party testimony and other non predictive measures to keep the smoke screen up.

I think they just have much bigger fish to fry than these dudes. I don’t think their smokescreen is as good as they think it is.

 

[Triode User]

Just throwing out some hypotheticals to extrapolate from your assertion and educate everyone a little bit. I won’t have a member of the trade making an off-hand comment to try to put a damper on the truth in this sub-forum. Next time think before you write.

I am sorry but you are entirely mistaken in your assumption that I was attempting to "put a damper on the truth in this sub-forum" and I would request that you withdraw that allegation. To quote you, "Next time think before you write."

 

[gregorio]

I’d say let’s get the courts to sort out the audio industry. Let the gavels fly, but I think they covered themselves by only offering third party testimony and other non predictive measures to keep the smoke screen up.

To be honest, the gavels need to fly first in the area of beauty/health/diet products. At least audiophile marketing is only spreading lies that cost the poor suckers their money, some of the diet/health/beauty products are downright physically dangerous! You're right though, in general they cover themselves, "we believe this is the best DAC" rather than "this is the best DAC" would leave you in court trying to disprove what someone believed. Unfortunately, we live in a society that instead of punishing liars, rewards the best ones with wealth and riches.

G

 

[Steve999]

I am sorry but you are entirely mistaken in your assumption that I was attempting to "put a damper on the truth in this sub-forum" and I would request that you withdraw that allegation. To quote you, "Next time think before you write."

Point A: I made no allegation, that was an opinion. In this country at least we are free to hold whatever opinion we like. My opinion was that as a member of the trade you were trying to squelch the truth. Maybe it was not intentional but that was the tenor of it, and you probably didn't think about what you were doing or how you were feeling. That's why I wrote for you to think before you write. As a member of the trade you have a particular and special status here.

Point B: If I am mistaken (only you would know for sure) I sincerely apologize and I would feel bad about that. I can't read your mind.

Point C: You have nothing to worry about from me except me calling BS if you piss me off really badly. Otherwise I'm inert.

Point D: I like to have fun here! I like to be silly! Maybe you could post something in the music thread! The other guys know a lot more than I do. I see nonsense here all the time and let it slide or even run with it. I could go around blasting it with dynamite even with my very limited knowledge but that's not my personality or my deal. I am not averse to having fun with people I disagree with. I like people. If you want to shoot back at me that's your deal. That's how this place goes. I get offended very rarely but you offended me. We can have fun now if you would like, no problema.

@castleofargh WILL put me in check if I get out of hand. And I have done so. With silliness.

 

[castleofargh]

Point A: I made no allegation, that was an opinion. In this country at least we are free to hold whatever opinion we like. My opinion was that as a member of the trade you were trying to squelch the truth. Maybe it was not intentional but that was the tenor of it, and you probably didn't think about what you were doing or how you were feeling. That's why I wrote for you to think before you write. As a member of the trade you have a particular and special status here.

Point B: If I am mistaken (only you would know for sure) I sincerely apologize and I would feel bad about that. I can't read your mind.

Point C: You have nothing to worry about from me except me calling BS if you piss me off really badly. Otherwise I'm inert.

Point D: I like to have fun here! I like to be silly! Maybe you could post something in the music thread! The other guys know a lot more than I do. I see nonsense here all the time and let it slide or even run with it. I could go around blasting it with dynamite even with my very limited knowledge but that's not my personality or my deal. I am not averse to having fun with people I disagree with. I like people. If you want to shoot back at me that's your deal. That's how this place goes. I get offended very rarely but you offended me. We can have fun now if you would like, no problema.

@castleofargh WILL put me in check if I get out of hand. And I have done so. With silliness.

I'd like to call up the lyrics from "Eye in the sky", both to discuss false accusations, and to remind everybody that as a modo, I am looking at you, and of course I can read your mind!

 

[Steve999]

I'd like to call up the lyrics from "Eye in the sky", both to discuss false accusations, and to remind everybody that as a modo, I am looking at you, and of course I can read your mind!

Done! (With corrections by me after listening to the song, and a shrinking and colorizing of the font. Wow! I never appreciated the intensity of the lyrics before!)

Eye in the Sky
Alan Parsons
Songwriters: Alan Parsons / Eric Nor

Don't think sorry's easily said
Don't try turning tables instead
You've taken lots of chances before
But I'm not gonna give anymore
Don't ask me
That's how it goes
Cause part of me knows what you're thinkin'

Don't say words you're gonna regret
Don't let the fire rush to your head
I've heard the accusation before
And I ain't gonna take any more
Believe me
The sun in your eyes
Made some of the lies worth believing

I am the eye in the sky
Looking at you
I can read your mind
I am the maker of rules
Dealing with fools
I can cheat you blind

And I don't need to see any more
To know that
I can read your mind, I can read your mind
I can read your mind, I can read your mind

Don't leave false illusion behind
Don't cry, I ain't changing my mind
So find another fool like before
Cause I ain't gonna live anymore believing
Some of the lies while all of the signs are deceiving

I am the eye in the sky
Looking at you
I can read your mind
I am the maker of rules
Dealing with fools
I can cheat you blind

And I don't need to see any more
To know that
I can read your mind, I can read your mind
I can read your mind, I can read your mind

I am the eye in the sky
Looking at you
I can read your mind
I am the maker of rules
Dealing with fools
I can cheat you blind

And I don't need to see any more
To know that
I can read your mind, I can read your mind
I can read your mind, I can read your mind

 

[Steve999]

To Whom It May Concern:

 

[Steve999]

So, um, to stay on topic, I now attached to my computer here one outboard DAC going to a stereo and one outboard DAC going to some headphones. I found both of them lying around in some junk. I am actually very fond of both of them. I just hooked them up with two USB cables I dug up off the floor. I have no idea where I got the cables, and I truly don't care. Really. I don't. They probably came in a box with some gadget. So the answer to the topic of this thread, namely: Why do USB cables make such a difference, might be, I dare say might be, something like, they don't make any audible difference if everything is even remotely okay, so the question is based on a false premise, and the rebuttal or support of that false premise generally speaking is the topic of this thread. Otherwise this whole thread might, I say might, have taken up one or two posts. Sorry if I am being, as @castleofargh might say, Captain Obvious, but I thought maybe I had steered this thread off course. Arm yourselves and resume!

I envision something like this:

Q: Why do USB cables make such a difference?

A: They don't make any audible difference if everything is even remotely okay. {Brief discussion}.

 

[bigshot]

Given this is the science forum, and science is about explaining observed phenomena, my approach is to speculate based on electrical theory and digital signals processing.

So you’re saying that you’re saying there is a difference because of purely theoretical reasons and belief, but no actual evidence? A hypothesis is a great place to start, but it’s just a guess until you test it and start coming up with results that support it. I’d suggest that now that you have a theory, you should do a few controlled tests to see if it’s correct. Check back here once you’ve done that.

 

[Redcarmoose]

Going from drugstore HP USB cables to a $170 AudioQuest Carbon USB tomorrow night. I’ll report back any findings?

 

[chef8489]

Going from drugstore HP USB cables to a $170 AudioQuest Carbon USB tomorrow night. I’ll report back any findings?

How do you plan on doing measurements? Or tests?