[gregorio]

Are all of us stupid or easy to be manipulated people?

The answer to that question is "yes"! Now that's not as insulting an answer as it may appear because we are ALL to an extent "easy to be manipulated people", if we weren't then we couldn't appreciate music in the first place! I disagree with many of your assertions, there is proof that we can perceive differences where there are none, there is proof that if you remove the perception biases then that "group [who] do hear exactly the same changes" no longer hear those changes.

Then we want to share our finding as we think it makes our lives better and for some reason we care about others.

And that's the problem! If you (plural) really did care about others, then you wouldn't advise them that there is definitely an audible improvement. If you (again plural) really did care about others then wouldn't you make some effort to ensure the advice you're providing is accurate, especially as audiophile cables are not an insignificant cost? Namely: That some people have perception biases which lead to a perceived improvement but those perception biases are subject to change, while others don't have those perception biases and do not perceive a difference in the first place.

G

 

[castleofargh]

I was looking for that quote from Feynman:
“Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.”
to make sure I was quoting right, but in the process found that one which is not bad either, from The pleasure of finding things out:
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool."

I agree wholeheartedly and always think I'm not being skeptical enough, despite having the will to be. then again I'm also not young and rich despite a very high motivation, so maybe will alone isn't always enough ^_^.

 

[bigshot]

I think it's interesting when people make impassioned speeches in defense of placebo effect. Because they haven't made the effort to understand how sound works, they don't understand it. And because they don't understand it, the figure it can't be understood. Then they build up a complicated barrier of feelings and emotions to protect their precious ignorance from being questioned. Whenever someone politely offers a clue, they look on them like they're a meanie sticking a pin in a child's balloon.

I think society is becoming more and more solipsist/autistic. Everyone is inside their own head and can't interpret the input coming from outside. Everyone seems to be clutching their ignorance to their chest like a teddy bear, refusing to let go. Even if they know that they're wrong! It's interesting that this shift has happened in my lifetime. When I was a kid, it was "build a better mousetrap" and "do your homework" and "pull yourself up by your bootstraps". Now it's "safe spaces" and "trigger warnings" and "it's MY opinion". I can't wait to see what comes next. I have a feeling that a lot of this is going to collapse under its own weight and something new will replace it.

I was looking for that quote from Feynman:
“Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves.”
to make sure I was quoting right, but in the process found that one which is not bad either, from The pleasure of finding things out:
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool."

Great quotes! I've always liked Mark Twain's comment, "It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt."

 

[amirm]

Camp 2 that believe they can hear a difference and share this with others having the same findings when in this case changing a usb cable (like more solid bass, mid, air, relaxed whatever).

The second part of this is not true unfortunately. Indeed I find this the most illogical thing about audio subjectivism. That no two subjective reviews of the same cable, gear, etc. agree with each. And that is putting aside terms used which have no specific meaning (PRAT, micro-detail, harmonically rich, etc.).

Worse yet, two people will have violently opposing views of the same device. One will say it has thin bass, and the other, best bass they have heard.

This happens at shows when everyone is listening to the same system and together!

Camp 1 that cannot hear any difference nor find good solid tests that might get them to reconsider.

Again, the first part of this is not true. I can get anyone to hear differences that are not there physically. Myself included! Just play the same digital file a few times in a row and focus on detail, air around instruments, etc. I guarantee you that you and everyone else will hear differences in every round even though nothing is changed!

Our hearing is very fluid in that our brain chooses what to capture from moment to moment. The sound waves entering our ears is but one factor that is used in what we "hear." When we test a new cable, we pay attention to figure out fidelity differences. That very motivation all of a sudden causes us to hear detail we did not hear before (but were always there). This happens to just about everyone. You have to try hard, very hard to ignore this. So I don't buy it when objectivists say they don't hear these differences. They do.

I remember the first time I tried Foobar2000 player some years back. I was under the mistaken assumption that by default it used exclusive access to the audio driver and hence was not subject to Windows audio stack resampling/dither. I immediately heard better fidelity, better air, etc. when compared to Windows Media Player. The I research and found out that it was using the same audio stack. The difference I "heard" vanished right then and there!

The difference between the two groups is that the camp 1 is aware of our mind generating false conclusions and hence, don't put weight behind unlikely differences reported subjectively.

Of course the keyword here is "unlikely." Many online characters ruin audio objectivity by using poor knowledge of audio science to declare any and all things impossible or unlikely. This by itself is anti-science and guilty of crimes nearly as bad as subjectivity. When you see them constantly providing opinion but no research and references, your antenna should be up. A wise man and top researcher in my group had a great line: "and unreasonable advocate is the worst of both worlds" as he referred to one of these people! Nothing pushes people away from objectivity in audio than this kind of conduct.

 

[Glenn Adema]

This is getting interesting... Let's change camps for a while (or maybe longer ). Where should we stop? I bought a system about 15 years ago (all new), spend about 8k for it and was quite happy with it. Later on I bought a decent DAC (about 5 years old now), somewhat more expensive cables (AQ Coffee series, and some scientific unproven audio grade power cables (lol)), a normal PC with fidelizer pro and jplay using USB 3 for the PC output with 2 jitterbugs connected (each on 1 bus). The amplifier is Denon avc-sr1 (around 4k) with amphion creon speakers for the 2.0 part (at that time I paid around 3k for them as a set). I have always been happy with it and it sounds better then most of the systems i have heard (again fully unproven I know) but sometimes it can be a little bit harsh for me (although using fidelizer reduces this a lot). Something about fidelizer: Fidelizer has a good theory why it does what is does on its site but there is no actual proof other then the 2000 positive paying and non paying users and their reviews. Let's just say that the software piece works for me. Saved some money and I am currently thinking of purchasing a new system. Reviewing these posts and reactions some of you are really plugged in on a science level regarding audio rather then on a what we think is right level (even as a group ALL thinking the same) because we feel so (which was what I did, as a newby on this site). I respect that. For everything I claim there is a reason why I claim it but then again to be honest a reason why that claim is nonsense is also and maybe even more easy to find (thanks for the awareness). Most people are again and again saying what is jibberish on a scientific level but lets turn it around in a positive way and learn from one another. What would be a good buy for lets say 5k (no more money available as I am a father now (lol)). On a scientific proven level, what should we buy to get the most out of it? Where are we now (2018), what has been proven and is therefore worth some money (instead of paying for nonsense). Don't care about specific brands or models but also don't care if you do. I am very curious where we stand in this point of time. Don't care about what most people say, care about what head-fi serious members (particularly the people that replied to me before) might say on this matter. And thus hope to hear from one of you soon! First asking this as a reply so the subscribers will be reached and later on I will create a new thread for this... (ps I am sorry if my english isn't perfect as its not my native language).

 

[bigshot]

I've never found much correlation between price and quality, except perhaps with transducers- but there are ways of doing them on the cheap that work too.

It is VERY easy to find transparent sources for cheap. Just about any $100 blu-ray player will play CDs as well as an audiophile player. An iPod or Mac Mini will sound as good too. Amps are pretty easy as well. I have a midrange Yamaha AV receiver in my system and it sounds great and is a Swiss army knife of features. I'd suggest putting most of your budget into good speakers. Look for speakers that are capable of producing a full range of frequencies fairly loud. Don't worry so much about perfectly balanced response. The second you put it in your room, that'll change anyway. I can offer suggestions of speakers I like, but I only know the brands I have used. I'm sure there are lots of great speakers out there.

The key to a good sounding speaker system is optimizing the room and equalization. If you don't have the experience to do that yourself, just hire a geek squad kind of guy who does home theater installation and have him set it up and tweak it for you. It really isn't rocket science though. You could probably figure it out yourself with a little googling.

One other suggestion... The biggest improvement in sound that you can make is multichannel. A halfway decent 5.1 system trounces the most high end 2 channel system. Naturally, the speakers will cost more because there are more of them, and its more complicated to EQ and balance. But if you pick up an inexpensive AVR, you can add channels as you go. Start with 2.0 then add a center for 3.0. Then a sub for 3.1. Then save up and get rears for 5.1. Even stereo recordings sound better on a multichannel system with the proper DSP.

Building a system is a process of optimizing and compromising. It isn't something you just go out and buy. You have to think about it and work it a bit if you want something really good. That takes applied science, priorities and horse sense. Money can't buy you that.

 

[castleofargh]

I can't help for that, I'm just a poor guy thinking "cheap" long before I think "fidelity". I also never got to test seriously(as in properly with actual controls) really expensive or "special" gears. at best I've been invited to some places or heard something in a showroom(worst listening conditions ever?). I'm just not your guy for that.
but I can at least synthesize my approach of fidelity: weak link!

my room is too small and asymmetrical, my speakers are cheap, even with measurements and fat curtains there is only so much I can do. my desk is a fabulous resonator ... so in comparison, I fail to find anything usually impacting the sound below -80dB to need tinkering.
at my current level I care about noises I clearly perceive, and then mainly about frequency response. when those 2 are subjectively fine for me and there is no massive issue(clipping, laggs, ...), I usually enjoying myself and feel I can stop there. that's really my zone. if I had some crazy good speakers in a great room with all the acoustic and DSP correction going great, then maybe I would get concerned by more frivolous aspects of my playback chain. simply because when the big issues are gone, the smaller issues become the big issues ^_^. but even then, cables would come last and USB cable probably lastererer. I expect it to have the lowest objective impact out of all my gears under typical conditions.
so I'm moving the goalposts, I admit that much. I don't think in term of "can it do something?", because almost anything can have some sort of measurable impact somewhere. instead I check fidelity along the playback chain and give attention to what will tend to have a high magnitude impact.

 

[bigshot]

Castleofargh has a good point. It's hard to offer suggestions without knowing about your listening room and how you plan to listen. Does your room serve multiple purposes? What size and shape is it? Do you have flexibility in room layout or are you stuck with what the wife allows? Those sorts of questions probably have more impact on sound quality than how much money you have to spend.

 

[gregorio]

On a scientific proven level, what should we buy to get the most out of it?

As others have said, it depends on your circumstances but we can make some generalisations, although some of them are more along the lines of where not to spend your money. For example, digital audio is pretty much a done deal. We can get perfect digital audio out of very cheap devices these day, perfect beyond the capabilities of the human ear. So DACs, USB cables/purifiers and source equipment is not where you want to be spending your money, probably 5% of your 5k budget is plenty, unless you need additional functionality (like a network server or something). Amps too are basically a done deal, just get the right power/load (again depending on functionality, like surround sound for example). Cables, power or audio, again, done deal. The obvious place to target most of your money is the transducers, speakers and/or HPs, this can and will make a significant difference, although don't assume that higher price = better fidelity, very expensive is often no better and sometimes worse than moderately expensive. And with speakers, there's a big bang for the buck with acoustic treatment and some of the digital room correction stuff. If it were me, speakers, treatment and room correction is where the vast proportion (probably 85-90%) of my budget would go.

G

 

[amirm]

What would be a good buy for lets say 5k (no more money available as I am a father now (lol)). On a scientific proven level, what should we buy to get the most out of it?

Starting with scientifically proven speakers, you need to purchase the brands/models that are designed that way. I know of only one brand where controlled listening tests backed by millions of dollars of published peer-reviewed research: Harman. That is the parent company and specific brand is Revel and some of their JBL line (e.g. M2 and 3867). No other company designs products from ground up that way. No Revel speaker for example is allowed to be released regardless of technical merit until it beats its competition in double blind tests.

Fortunately they have excellent products from bookshelf on up to full tower. See the Performa 3 for example: http://revelspeakers.com/revel-performa3.html. Since speakers don't obsolete hardly at all, I would put at least half of your budget there.

Next you need a way to deal with your room. Revel/Harman speakers are designed to have similar off-axis response to on-axis. This means the sound you get above a few hundred hertz, is almost independent of the room you put them in.

Below a few hundred hertz, the room dominates the sound you hear, not the speaker. Since we put some 25% emphasis on bass when it comes to fidelity, it is essential to optimize that. No system regardless of price has proper bass without this. Again, the room is controlling this, not the speaker, not the amp, not the DAC, not the cable, etc. And it is very simple physics of sound waves combining.

Free options for above include measuring your room (see my tutorial here: https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...om-measurement-tutorial-for-dummies-part-1.4/) and then optimizing your seating positiona and speakers. But that still leaves bass issues even in best circumstances. You need electronic correction for best results ("Room EQ"). I plan to write a tutorial on doing this manually but there are automated systems out there. If you are using a PC as a source, Dirac Live is a turnkey solution but pricey (about $1000 from what I recall). That is what I use on my 2-channel system.

Speaking of source, I trust you have already gotten on the bandwagon of streaming music from a computer/NAS/server. All of this fidelity talk is nonsense if convenience is not there. Get Tidal subscription while you are at it and enjoy more music than you can for hundred lifetimes for the price one CD a month! I use Roon software plus Tidal and Dirac and life is great.

For amplifier, get something with lots of power. If there is anything that can make amps sound different is when they run out of power. Class-D amps have gotten good bringing the price of such a solution way down. If you can though, make sure to seek out reviews as Class-D amps interact with the load/speaker, resulting in potentially colored sound (in high frequencies).

For DACs, the Topping D30 remains my favorite at just $129 shipped in US: https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-d30-dac-measurement-and-review.2016/

These are all decisions and tips that can be heavily defended with audio science/engineering.

 

[bigshot]

Or you can just call the Geek Squad and they'll set you all up!

 

[dzasta]

still going strong I see...

the gift that keeps on giving!

 

[Glmoneydawg]

still going strong I see...

the gift that keeps on giving!

Yep...not sure why this is still going....sounds like 1/2 the posters have it all figured out....should be offline listenng to they're scientifically perfect systems

 

[Strangelove424]

Yep...not sure why this is still going....sounds like 1/2 the posters have it all figured out....should be offline listenng to they're scientifically perfect systems

There is no perfection in science and science makes no attempt to achieve it. Perfection, or atleast the pursuit of perfection in audio, is the just about most unscientific thing a person could do.

 

[Glmoneydawg]

There is no perfection in science and science makes no attempt to achieve it. Perfection, or atleast the pursuit of perfection in audio, is the just about most unscientific thing a person could do.

Yep...art not science